Full Version: to Dye sub or not to dye sub
From: Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE) [#1]
11 Dec 2006
To: ALL
that is the question...
I am contemplating purchasing the equipment to be able to offer die sub. I don't have any specific call for it right now but I see a lot of potential having that available.
I know less about dye sub equipment than I did about lasers so I am really at a loss. I have been looking at equipment on bestblanks.com and they seem to have a variety of packages that fit most any price range. I haven't checked anywhere else yet, I am really in the very beginning stages of my research. I am never one to purchase based solely on price and I almost never get the cheapest of anything - I would rather grow into something gradually than grow out of it quickly... It looks like I can get two printers, a dye sub and inkjet transfer, 16x20 press, software, remote ink tanks for both printers and 100 sheets of 11x17 paper for just over $4,000.00. This would allow me to do dye sub as well as inkjet transfer - do I need both?
So, those of you that do dye sub - do you see a lot business with that equipment or is it more of a convenience factor to be able to offer your other clients that service?
What are the typical things you use it for?
What are the "not-so-typical" things you use it for?
Any advice is very welcome!
Thanks,
Gary
Edit: I guess I should learn how to spell it before I offer it... Die sub vs Dye sub
EDITED: 11 Dec 2006 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2]
11 Dec 2006
To: Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE) [#1] 12 Dec 2006
I changed the spelling, in the title of your discussion, (die to dye) although some people who have been involved with ink jet dye sub, would say your spelling was correct. :-)
My first bit of advice (and I think other dye subbers would agree), if you buy small format printers, use refillable cartridges, as opposed to the bulk ink systems, which sound good in theory. They add a new set of variables, to a process that is already replete with variables.
Most of the dye sub I perform is on metal plates, that I use for award plaques and name badges. I also imprint ceramic tiles for framed murals and as inserts in keepsake boxes.
EDITED: 11 Dec 2006 by DGL
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#3]
11 Dec 2006
To: Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE) [#2] 12 Dec 2006
About 2 years ago I decided to get into dye sub and purchased an Epson 1280 with a bulk system. I think I have about $1300 invested. I also have the Magic Touch color laser system which I've had for several years.
With the laser system you can mark anything but it is less than ideal for things subject to wear. Coffee mugs for example cannot be washed in the dishwasher. Besides marking metal and some name tags I do a fair number of t-shirts with this machine and it is good for that application. I do limit myself to white shirts but can do any shirt material. These wash and wear very well.
In about 6 years the machine has been flawless. Today you can buy similar machines for about $400 where I paid about $2000.
On the other hand my dye sub process has not been so smooth. Because of my light volume the inks clog or air gets into the cartridges and the image is lousy. When it works the image is superior to any other that I've seen. This equipment takes more maintenance than anything else in my shop.
The other limitation is the substrates. You must use polymer or polymer coated materials for everything. These are more expensive in all cases.
T-shirts cost $1.50 for laser but $5.00+ for dye sub. Metal is more expensive as are mugs. Mugs, though are dishwasher safe and come out looking beautiful.
I just decided to scrap my bulk system in favor of re-fillable cartridges but I haven't set it up. Re-fillable cartridges are very inexpensive and you can still use bulk ink.
If the re-fillable cartridges don't solve the problem I'll probably stop offering the service or have somebody who has better equipment and volume like David make the transfers.
EDITED: 11 Dec 2006 by MIKEN
From: logojohn [#4]
12 Dec 2006
To: Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE) [#1] 12 Dec 2006
We tend to not buy equipment 'till after we have a market. Our customers request things we can't do in house. We order them in for awhile and finally there is enough demand that it is a no-brainer to get the equipment.
With the laser it was the time savings and ease doing acrylic awards that were taking way to long trying to rotary engrave them and started selling
in high volume. Also much easier to get detailed tiny logos on namebadges.
Doing wood, marble and crystal awards added more product options.
We started getting more and more requests for full color name badges and photos on plaques. The dye sub was the best choice for that at the time.
The special coated services give predictable repeatable results without the
problems of the marking rubbing off or not sticking.
COST OF ENTRY
You could get started for under $1000 with a small press and
the smaller printer.
INK
The biggest onging expense is the over $300 ink set.
You can try the bulk but seems unpredictable and problemic on the smaller printers. I like the sawgrass ink. They have an easily installed "power driver" that takes care of the color correction without messing with the profiles manually and it has sublimation specific settings built into the printer driver.
PRESS
We started with and still use a lower cost 8.5x11 hobby press which has done the job so far. We had bought a mug press for $100 from a local shop closing 2 years before we needed it. Will likely upgrade to a larger one. I like the ones that have several inches of thickness to allow for new items.
SUB PRINTERS
I don't know if the bigger format printers have clogging or quality issues over time like the smaller ones do. It would be a bummer paying over $1000 for a printer and have it not work right after a year.
That has happened 3 or 4 times with the Epson c84, c86. The c86 was leaving ink spiders around the letters. There is no foolproof way to clean it. After trying, finally the cleaning mechanism came undone and never worked again. At under $100 you just throw it out and start over with little harm done. We just got a c88 last month. Using the regular or lasersub metal allows color photos on plaques with much less editing and testing than trying to get it to look good with the laser. It has been a lifesaver when someone wants a full color complex event logo on even things as small as a 1" trophy plate. It is also fast and we have done several hundred pieces in a very short time.
OEM PRINTER
The OEM Laser Transfer sounded promising for doing color on non sub-friendly products, especially on acrylics. I have had some succes using it but is not as foolproof as sublimation. Some items turn out and the next one has small or big areas that doesn't stick. It is hard to find the right temperature so the printing stays on but doesn't cause heat damage to the product. Big learning curve I am still on the bottom side of.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#5]
12 Dec 2006
To: Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE) [#1] 12 Dec 2006
Gary,
Go to www.dyesub.org if you have not already been there. Lot and lots of good information about dye sub.
I am still new to it, but I bought my system about 10 months ago with the express idea of doing architectural tile murals. ( Back splashes, showers etc.)
My personal philosophy is to get the best that I can afford and grow into it, so I purchased an Epson 4000 ( now defunct but still supported), a Geo Knight swing away heat press with a shuttle so I can load one side while pressing the other, and Sawgrass inks.
It took me about two years to bite the bullet. Some folks told me to run away from it, others told me to embrace it, and still others told me it would be fine. After 10 months of using the process I have only had minor glicthes which tech support helped me get through. My printer has yet to clog even after sitting idle for a month, and only recently did I have a color correction problem, which I attribute to my ink levels.
Is there a market? I believe there is, and the more I delve into dye sub, the bigger the market becomes. Do you have to create your market? Quite possibly. But given the VAST number of items that can now be subbed, it really does open a door with a lot of possibilities.
I hope this little bit has been of some help to you.
From: Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE) [#6]
13 Dec 2006
To: ALL
Thanks to everyone for your input. I have a lot of research to do and this helps tremendously. The link to DSSI has enough info to read for a few sleepless nights...
Thanks again!
Gary
From: jpkevin [#7]
14 Dec 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#5] 14 Dec 2006
Hi Chuck,
Just to let you know that 4000's are still in stock and available. They are running out quickly though.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#8]
14 Dec 2006
To: jpkevin [#7] 14 Dec 2006
Good to know.
From: LipChip [#9]
14 Dec 2006
To: jpkevin [#7] 14 Dec 2006
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#10]
14 Dec 2006
To: LipChip [#9] 14 Dec 2006
David,
I know the 4800 comes that way. I had mine configured as 4 color ( just didn't know any different at the time). I have had no problems with it thus far.
What are the advantages of configuring as an 8 color system?
Thanks
From: LipChip [#11]
14 Dec 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#10] 14 Dec 2006
If your working with the 8 color system (Epson 4000) , some say that it gets better colors when doing artwork murals on ceramics, etc.. Also, "from what I've heard", Epson dealers can not work on a machine after it gets configured for Dual CMYK. It must be re-configured back to the 8 color machine if your going to have an Epson dealer do repairs. This is from my research.
We would together with several other decorators that have their 4000's configured to run Dual CYMK, so that is why went that direction. It's said to be much faster in the Dual CYMK mode. Time will tell.
One of our contacts uses his 4000 strictly as the 8 color unit, and work not ever consider changing to the Dual CYMK.
It's kinda, to each his or her own preference.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#12]
14 Dec 2006
To: LipChip [#11] 14 Dec 2006
David,
Is the a difference in ink consumption? And once a system is configured for 4 color can it be reconfigured to 8 color? I am assuming from your post that the answer to this is yes.
From: LipChip [#13]
14 Dec 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#12] 14 Dec 2006
"From my understanding" it can be re-configured back, and it can be changed from working with 110ml carts, or 220ml carts, or the refillable (best way to go if you have the money) or you can add this feature a cartridge at a time.
This seems to be one reason that the Epson 4000's are flying off of the shelves. Not sure when this will be available on the Epson 4800.
I "believe" that companies like Johnson Plastics are now configuring the Epson 4800 to run "somewhat like" the Dual CMYK mode, but have two different set of inks, where you could then do sublimation inks, and the Chromablast inks for t-shirt printing on the same machine.
Kevin Lumberg.... chime in here.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#14]
14 Dec 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#12] 14 Dec 2006
Hi Chuck,
The advantage of dual cmyk is essentially double the speed. Two heads putting cmyk out with one pass instead of one with smaller amounts of 8 total colors.
The part that gets lost in this speed issue is can the substrate handle the speed....Meaning..... can the media take the faster deposit of ink with less drying time. With dye sub....you have to be careful not to oversaturate the transfer paper or you get pooling and cockeling. The way other larger format printers deal with this is with speed control, and the ability to reduce ink with certain combinations with the rip that runs the printers.
Consumption would just be twice as fast...not twice as much ;)
EDITED: 14 Dec 2006 by RALLYGUY1
From: jpkevin [#15]
14 Dec 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#12] 14 Dec 2006
The dual CMYK setup is much faster and more cost effective per print than the 8 color setup. The eight color setup has a slightly larger color gamut that it can hit, but I have not seen a big issue with this. Overall, I like the color reproduction of the dual CMYK better than the 8 color 4000. Now on the other hand, I like the overall color production of the eight color 4800 the best of any of the printers. (slightly better than the Dual CMYK 4000) However, the 4800 is much slower than the 4000. In my opinion, the bottleneck of most sublimation businesses, is waiting for the printer to print the transfers, so, again in my opinion, the 4000 Dual CMYK is the best sublimation platform currently available.
As far as getting it worked on by a service person, I just spoke with an Epson Certified repair facility, here in town, and he said that having a 4000 converted to Dual CMYK would not prevent them from working with them. They would only work on them, whether they were 4 or 8 color, if they were no longer within the 1 year warranty. If it is still within the warranty, Epson will do a "whole unit replacement" of the machine. If you are a business address they will ship you a new printer next day, and if you are a residential address they will send it two day.
I have not had any problems with the ink being laid down too fast with the dual CMYK setup.
Hope this helps.
EDITED: 14 Dec 2006 by JPKEVIN
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16]
14 Dec 2006
To: jpkevin [#15] 14 Dec 2006
Kevin,
Does Johnson Plastics sell ArTainium ink or just Sublijet?
I'm asking, because I heard there's an issue with ArTainium ink and hi-release transfer paper, in that, it tends to blur or run on the paper.
Apparently the formula of the ink (ArT) has been changed.
EDITED: 14 Dec 2006 by DGL
From: jpkevin [#17]
14 Dec 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16] 14 Dec 2006
Hi David,
We do sell both Artainium and Sublijet inks.
When I used to have my business, I used Artainium inks with the Epson 3000. I was using the Texprint 95, and had no problems. After a while, I started having blurring issues when I printed yellow next to black. They would run into each other. I talked with the Beaver Paper people at a trade show, and was told that that was an issue, but they had the new Texprint XP, and had taken care of that issue. I used the XP paper and it worked great........for a while, and then I started to have the blurring issue again.
I did some testing using the Truepix, and our JP paper, and with the Texprint paper, and I found that there wasn't much difference in the images between them. We have discontinued the Texprint paper.
The accuplot paper is a thinner bond (21 lb) versus the 31 lb of the JP and Truepix. In my testing, I have gotten better color with the heavier bond paper, so that is what I prefer.
So to answer your question......I think it is a paper issue rather than an ink issue.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#18]
14 Dec 2006
To: jpkevin [#17] 14 Dec 2006
I think it's an ink/paper compatibilty issue.
I prefer papers like Jetcol (still available?) and Textprint XP, for tile and fabric work and use ArTainium ink, although I must have the old formulation of ArTainium, because I did some tiles the other day, with Textprint XP and had no problems whatsoever.
Thank you for the informative response.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#19]
14 Dec 2006
To: ALL
For anyone considering entering the world of sublimation, you might want to read the thread at DSSI regarding a new offering of Laser Sublimation being introduced by Colorstar.
I for one would not be buying inkjet today, unless I absolutely had to have larger format, without taking a look at what they are offering.
Doug
From: jpkevin [#20]
14 Dec 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#19] 14 Dec 2006
Hi Doug,
I agree and disagree with your statement about Inkjet sublimation versus laser.
I agree that people should check out ALL available technologies before purchasing any equipment. They need to find the technologies that best fit what they are looking for. There is not currently ANY technology that does everything. You may very well need a mixture of technoligies.
Laser (both sublimation, and non-sublimation) has its pros and cons, and inkjet certainly has its pros and cons. Neither is perfect.
I certainly believe that inkjet sublimation is a very viable and profitable business. If you have the proper equipment and support.
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