Full Version: Newbie Needs Laser Engraver Purchasing Advice
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#8]
29 Jan 2007
To: ALL
Just wanted to thank everyone so far that has answered my post. As for a Rotary Engraver, There is a gunsmith across the street from me that purchased a New Hermes Rotary Engraver a couple yeas ago and has never used it. He has offered to let me use it all I want in exchange for engraving some small plates for some of the guns he builds.
It is my understanding that Laser Engravers are taking over, and are the future of the Industry. Since I have never used either Rotary or Laser Engravers, I can only go by what I have been reading over the past two to three weeks. If this is not the case, please don't hesitate to educate me. All info would be greatly appreciated.
Could someone please respond and tell me what things I could do with a Rotary Engraver, and what I could do with a Laser Engraver.
This is a great Forum. I sincerely appreciate all your comments and guidance.
Don
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#8] 29 Jan 2007
The choice between a rotary/drag system and a laser isn't either or.
They're both capable of performing similar tasks, while there are some areas that don't cross over.
Why not take the guy with the New Hermes machine up on his offer, to get a feel for a rotary machine. That won't cost $10K to explore.
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#10]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#4] 29 Jan 2007
I would suggest spending a few days reading the posts here (not just in the laser section, but in other sections too, since lasers are laced through a lot of this forum. You'll also see a lot of threads talking about both laser and rotary and what one is better for vs the other. They both have their places.
I'd also suggest reading through the laser and CNC section of Sawmill Creek (link is in the "Links of Interest" dropbox in the upper right of this page). A lot of posts there coming from a different perspective on lasers (mostly woodworkers and signmakers), but also a lot of good information about lasers in general and the problems people run into with them.
A used laser can save you money, but you also inherit any problems that machine has, and your chances of needing a new laser tube are a bit higher. Without having a warrantee, a rebuilt laser tube (just the tube) can set you back anywhere from $800-$3k, depending on brand and wattage.
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#11]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#1] 29 Jan 2007
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#12]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#11] 29 Jan 2007
I'm a laser guy but the opportunity your neighbor has presented may be the perfect answer. Why not start out that way and see what it brings.
If I could justify it I would also have one of the more versatile rotary machines in addition to my laser.
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#13]
29 Jan 2007
To: Mike (MIKEN) [#12] 29 Jan 2007
Thanks Mike & all that have responded so far. I went over and spoke with my Gunsmith neighbor this afternoon to get some more info and he told me the security dongle was broke and that he was ordering a new one. I asked him which model New Hermes the machine was and he couldn't remember. He showed me a parts list he had, and a G98 Security Dongle was circled. I asked him if this is what he ordered and he said yes. Does anyone know which New Hermes Rotary Engraver uses the G98 Security Dongle?
I asked my neighbor how many parts he expected me to engrave for him per month in exchange for the use of the engraver and he said probably no more than 40. These are small tags to be attached to guns. I'm wondering what would be the average cost to charge for these if I were to own my own engraver. Any ideas?
I've been reading posts about Mechanical Engravers and I'm still somewhat confused. It looks like laser engraving is simpler and more versatile. I am not opposed to starting off with a Rotary Engraver, and it looks like they are a little less expensive than lasers, but I still don't really understand what they cannot do that a laser can.
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#14]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#13] 29 Jan 2007
The price for the small tags will vary by content but probably less than $2.50.
Much depends on the type of rotary engraver you compare but some of them have nearly unlimited capability in terms of the size and shape of objects which can be engraved. They do a fine job of marking metal which you cannot do with a laser unless the metal has a lacquer or anodized surface. A chemical called Cermark can be applied to some metals permitting the laser to make a black mark on the metal.
Rotary machines are slower than a laser on most comparable jobs. They are not good for marking wood and have some limitations graphically with acrylics.
The laser will cut many materials, the rotary will cut some plastics.
I think all of us could probably write a book on what can or can't be done with these machines but you're probably better off to visit mfrs websites or call them. I think all have 800 numbers to the sales dept.
Whoever mentioned looking at used equipment offered sound advice as well.
The real secret to success in this business is marketing.
EDITED: 29 Jan 2007 by MIKEN
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#15]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#13] 29 Jan 2007
The G98 probably stands for Gravostyle98 which is the software. It can run almost all of their machines.
The model of the machine should be on the front.
Was the dongle red or yellow?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#13] 29 Jan 2007
A laser can capture fine detail in engraved wood, engrave leather and engrave graphics (logos) without having to digitize the artwork.
They can also engrave (filled) true type typefaces, faster than a rotary machine.
As to how much to charge for the gunsmith's tags, I would gauge that price, more by the time expended, than the cost of materials or the amount of engraving.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#17]
29 Jan 2007
To: ALL
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#18]
29 Jan 2007
To: Mike (MIKEN) [#14] 29 Jan 2007
Mike,
Thanks for the great info. I am very interested in using an engraver for wood signs and for photos in acrylic. I joined ARA today and will be atending the ARA Trade Show In Las Vegas Next month. Your reply to my questions has been of great value to me. I will accept my neighbors offer of his Rotary Engraver and look at both at the tradeshow.
Thanks again for your help,
Don
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#19]
29 Jan 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#15] 29 Jan 2007
Thanks For The Reply Harvey Only,
The machine is at his house. He said he will bring it down to the shop later this week. I didn't look at the Dongle. He pointed towards a desk across the room that was piled with papers but I didn't go over to it.
I will be attending the Trade Show in Vegas where I will be able to see both rotary and lasers in action.
Thank you for your help,
Don
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#20]
29 Jan 2007
To: ALL
You wont look back after adding a laser to a signage business , you already have a market to tap. Forget engraving geegaws and small stuff at first, use it to offer your existing signage clients the most amazing and creative signage. Get something with a decent bed size and forget your 10k budget, it's gonna cost you double to do it right.
Its a lot more versatile than a rotary for signage , but if you got access to a rotary as well as a laser - you really on your way.
Key to making this work would be some sort of experience in perspex fabrication. IE a decent bender and some glueing experience. You can make amazing point of sale stuff with a laser.
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#21]
29 Jan 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16] 29 Jan 2007
David,
Yourself and others have been a really big help and I appreciate it. I'm really leaning towards a Laser Engraver, but will accept my neighbors offer of using his Rotary engraver in exchange for doing his tags for him.
I will be attending the Trade Show in Vegas and will learn alot. Thanks for the info on the Rotary Engraving Class. I missed that one.
Thanks Again,
Don
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#22]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#21] 29 Jan 2007
You can't go wrong by attending the Las Vegas show. All the "majors" are there and you'll be able to see live demos galore.
When you say "High Desert" is that the California high desert?
You may also want to consider joining us at the Beach Party, otherwise known as an evening with Joe Hayes. :-)
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#23]
29 Jan 2007
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#20] 29 Jan 2007
Hi Rodney Gold,
My original thought was to look into a large Laser engraver for signage. But I had no idea of the costs. A Friend of mine in the next town purchased a $75,000.00 Flatbed Wide-Format Printer the first of lst year and has captured 90% of the market in the entire area. No-one could compete with him and make a profit. Finally, at the end of summer, I sold my main Wide-Format Printer and and am now having him do my printing for me as wide-format printing for me has pretty much dried-up.
Since we have only three engraving busineses within a hundred mile area (and two of them are working from their homes) I decided that even though I couldn't afford an engraver with a large bed size, that perhaps I could fill a niche market and add engraving to my sign business. I have a retail storefront but am in a very small town of about 20,000. However, the three engraving busineses i mentioned earlier are over 25 miles away from me.
After your post and several others I have read, It looks as though a Laser Engraver would be the way to go for me. I am willing to do what my customers want, but it sure would be fun to do some signage, some wood signs, and some laser photos in acrylic.
I am gonna accept my neighbors offer to use his Rotary Engraver nad also look into buying an Epilog Mini Laser Engraver. I really wish I had the bucks, experience, and/or business to go for a large laser, but I'm afraid that would be too risky with me knowing nothing yet. But that is my dream.....
Thank you for your input. It is appreciated.
Don
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#24]
29 Jan 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#22] 29 Jan 2007
Thanks for the invite to the Beach Party David. What day is it? I will be there on Thursday and Friday.
High Desert Is short for my sign business, High Desert Sign Co. I am in North/Central Arizona just outside of Prescott, Az.
Don
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#24] 29 Jan 2007
I have a friend who just moved to Prescott Valley from Ventura, CA.
Nice area! I was there last August.
Here's the thread with the beach Party info.
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=5261.1
Hope you can make it!
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#26]
29 Jan 2007
To: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#21] 29 Jan 2007
A few thoughts:
You know the classic engraved brass plates on trophy bases, on picture frames in a gallery, on the butt of a gun, which typically have letters cut into the surface? Those are done with a rotary. A laser can not cut metal or cut down into the surface of metal (at least not without spending huge money on an industrial laser).
You know the classic monograms and text engraved on the back of a pocket watch, on a flask, a silver tray, etc... which are usually sharp shiny lines cut into the metal? A laser can not do that. Those are done with a mechanical engraver.
A laser can only mark onto the surface of metals using a chemical that turns black and bonds to the surface of the metal when hit by the laser. It's a different look.
On the other hand, a laser can engrave photographs into woods, acrylics, and metals (using that chemical). It can cut shapes out of thin woods and acrylics fairly easily, with amazing detail. It can cut fabric, paper, rubber stamp material (which stinks), and some other soft materials. It can bleach the color of anodized aluminum without removing the anodize.
A laser can not cut or engrave PVC/vinyl because the fumes will damage the laser. Certain plastics will have melted edges or charred edges. Cutting woods leaves some char on the edges.
In other words, a laser and a rotary are different, and give different types of results with different materials. There are very few materials where the results look similar.
Do you currently have a CNC machine, like a shopbot for doing signs? Many signmakers say that a CNC is far more profitable in a sign business than an engraver. If you already have a CNC, a laser can compliment that in a sign business. If you want to shift directions and do engraving, then a laser and a rotary both have their places, and can compliment each other.
From: Don (HIGHDESERT) [#27]
29 Jan 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#26] 29 Jan 2007
Thanks Dave,
Your explanation was very helpful. I do not have a CNC Router. I seriously considered buying a 48x96 Shopbot when the Wide Format printing market dropped out here, but bottom line..... I just don't have any interest in the work involved in dimentional wood signs (sanding, sealing, masking, painting) And I honestly don't feel there is any market here for them due to the cost.
What I really would like to do is build up a small engraving shop and continue doing the profitable things in the sign business (Banners, Magnets, Vinyl lettering).
Anywhere else, I'm 100% sure that CNC Routing would be very profitable. but I just don't see it happenning here.
Thanks again for your help,
Don