Full Version: CGS Learning Center
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1]
29 Jan 2007
To: ALL
Coast Graphic Supply (CGS) will be holding a sublimation seminar at their on-site "Learning Center."
Along with Jim Cagnina, (CGS owner), who's vastly knowledgeable on the process, I'll be a guest speaker, on the topic of sublimation and the awards industry.
Where?
Coast Graphic Supply
4721 Market St.
Ventura, CA 93003
When?
Saturday, March 31, 2007
9 am - 5 pm
Cost?
$129 per person / $89 for the second person from same company.
$89, if you've recently purchased a sublimation system from CGS.
Lunch is included.
If you're interested in attending, call Esther at 800.356.8866
See you there. :-)
EDITED: 9 Mar 2007 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2]
9 Mar 2007
To: ALL
Same time; same place.
I'm working on new sublimated plaque samples for this presentation, as well as other items that can be used as awards.
You can't touch these ideas with laser engraving or rotary/drag machines, although if you have those tools of the trade, you're in an even better position to create very unique products.
Some call it multimedia; some call them hybrid applications.
I call it the #1 way to set yourself apart from the pedestrians. :-)
See you there!
EDITED: 9 Mar 2007 by DGL
Message 5896.3 was deleted
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#4]
23 Mar 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2] 24 Mar 2007
David, CGS is distributing my sublimation and white toner. I would like to see you get involved with Jim on learning this process. There are so many applications for this with the white toner. The learning center would be great for this new technology.
When you have time you may call my 1-866-900-2830 to discuss further.
I thought you did a great job on the doming of the badges at the Beach party.
AL La Costa
From: sprinter [#5]
24 Mar 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#4] 24 Mar 2007
Al,
Other than cost, the biggest problem I see with using your process is registration . Even using the same printer, it's almost impossible to get acceptable registration by feeding the transfer thru the second time, and using two different printers it is even worse. Do you have a fix for this?
Even on your website, the registration of your examples are all over the map. I don't know many customers that would accept any of them.
Also, do you have any cost per page break downs of the white?
EDITED: 24 Mar 2007 by SPRINTER
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
24 Mar 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#4] 24 Mar 2007
I'll definitely speak to Jim about your system and hopefully the people at the seminar will receive a demo.
I'll give you a call.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7]
24 Mar 2007
To: sprinter [#5] 24 Mar 2007
Although I haven't tried two-pass printing, with a laser printer, my Epson ink jet printers are capable of very good registration, in multiple passes.
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#8]
24 Mar 2007
To: sprinter [#5] 24 Mar 2007
The registration can be hit by setting it up in print preview when going to print.
My waterslide decal distributor does it with ease.
I don,t have a cost for using the white as yet because we have been trying all of these different applications and substrates. I personally don,t think it will be an issue because you should be able to get the price. If I can,t get 29 to 25 dollars for a dark shirt then I would rather not do the job.
Acrylic, Glass, wood, metal, and leather are easier but have a better perceived look and doesn,t have the transparency appearance as does OEM and regular sublimation.
AL La Costa
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#9]
24 Mar 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#8] 24 Mar 2007
I don,t have a cost for using the white as yet because we have been trying all of these different applications and substrates. I personally don,t think it will be an issue because you should be able to get the price. If I can,t get 29 to 25 dollars for a dark shirt then I would rather not do the job. Acrylic, Glass, wood, metal, and leather are easier but have a better perceived look and doesn,t have the transparency appearance as does OEM and regular sublimation. AL La Costa
Al, Interesting that for a product you first announced, what, back in October of 06, you still cannot state a cost schedule?
I'm please to see you use the term "perceived look" in your statement, because for me, I'd rather have the look of the leather grain or wood grain show through the toner layed down...after all, we are not selling a handpainted piece!
Doug
From: sprinter [#10]
24 Mar 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7] 24 Mar 2007
Oh course personal experience. The Oki is terrible for 2nd pass registration.
I had a large switch plate order for OEM Transfer, the customer had the design and color layout but not the text he wanted on them. I thought I would get a jump on the job and print out the outlines and color while waiting on the text. Needless to say I couldn't get the text to align on the second pass, even though I used a template layout in Corel. It looked great in print preview :-$
EDITED: 24 Mar 2007 by SPRINTER
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#11]
24 Mar 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#9] 24 Mar 2007
Doug, How do you put a cost on something that has a lot of dark in the picture? That picture will use very little white. Then you need to take the item you are going to transfer onto such as a 4 x 5 acrylic.
There isn,t any standards for doing a yield test with this technology as there is with regular toners and inks.
I am not going to just throw out a price to justify a cost of print. We don,t have enough users and production by them to start getting some kind of estimate.
I have only gone through 2 cartridges myself since Oct. and have one customer who reordered white toner about 2 months after there initial order.
I do have more volumne of toner in the white then the sublimation by a third.
The sublimation is pretty accurate in yield of 1300 transfers with full coverage at the letter size.
We have almost sold out of the original production of white and by the time we manufacture the next batch we should hear some results from our customers on there yields.
I do know we are less expensive then a Direct to garment printer is for ROI.
AL La Costa
From: sprinter [#12]
24 Mar 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#8] 24 Mar 2007
Al,
I'm not talking about screen registration, I'm talking about the printers mechanical registration. I'm glad your distributor doesn't have a problem with registration, but what about the rest of us, including yourself from the looks of your examples on your website.
WOW, If I told a customer the price was $25-$29 for a shirt, it would take 10 minutes for them to stop laughing, before they walked out.
From the extra artwork time required and running 2 passes, the additional cost of the white, I really don't think it is cost effective for what it adds to the cost of a print. I know my customers wouldn't pay it.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#13]
24 Mar 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#11] 24 Mar 2007
Al, since the only real application I can see for your process is dark fabric, I guess what I'm interested in is that application.
Due to the dark base, I suspect you would have to lay down a white base for the entire printed area and this should not be so difficult for you to put a cost on.
Why do I see the application to be for dark fabric? Because I can print on the rest of what you are selling with other systems that I'm quite confident are going to be less costly and simpler just because they can be done with a single pass operation. I don't see the transfer printing process to be a single method, rather several to include ink jet sub, laser sub, and/or OEM laser. There are applications that each of these methods excel in.
Doug
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#14]
24 Mar 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#13] 24 Mar 2007
Correct me if I am taking your comment out of context, but there are plenty of applications for any new process that has white as a color. Just look how the white enhances these images on frosted glass, mirrored acrylic, and bright gold aluminum.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#15]
24 Mar 2007
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#14] 24 Mar 2007
Dave, I'll give you the gold metal....I have never printed any so that has not been an issue for me.
For the glass, I use either a sublimation process where the glass is coated with a white coating making it acceptable for sublimation.
Mostly though, today, I do my glass with oem laser transfer, printed to the back of the glass and then spray painted white to seal in the toner. Still one printing process and one printer.
Question, does this mean you are using Al's white toner process?
Doug
EDITED: 24 Mar 2007 by JDOUG5170
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16]
24 Mar 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#15] 24 Mar 2007
Doug,
I am not using Al's process yet. These were just some samples he had sent me.
What attracts me to this process is that you only have the white behind the image itself, not the whole piece of glass as you described your process being. I guess if one had a steady hand he or she could paint only behind the image, but this adds more time to the job.
I like Al's two-printer system with the white toner. I like Mick's OEM toner transfer paper process. I like Sawgrass and Tropical Graphics' sublimation inks. I like laser sublimation toner from Alpha Supply. What I don't like is the fact that I have to have multiple systems to introduce the highest quality imprint on a variety of substartes. None of these processes are strong across the board, but they are very good in their given niche.
From: Carl (CSEWELL) [#17]
24 Mar 2007
To: sprinter [#10] 24 Mar 2007
{Sorry, a lot of people won't understand the above...........}
From: sprinter [#18]
24 Mar 2007
To: Carl (CSEWELL) [#17] 24 Mar 2007
Carl,
I made a fixture to put them on, perfect every time. Also, I didn't remove them after the first printer pass, so that wasn't the problem. It's the way the OKI grabs the sheets using the single sheet feeder, it can be skewed and the printer doesn't check that. Once the page is skewed the registration goes out the window, and it doesn't take much at all to affect it. The Epsons uses gravity to help align the page and does a much better job of registration.
From: Carl (CSEWELL) [#19]
24 Mar 2007
To: sprinter [#18] 24 Mar 2007
Do you have a 3400 or 5500? I print on my 5500 and laser cut the same sheet and I only see misregistration problems in the tens-of-thousandths. It's certainly not hundreds-of-thousandths. Is your registration worse than that?
I always align to layout lines (and sometimes cut the paper to the layouts lines) and not to the paper border.
I tend to use the MP tray more, and make sure that the rails are tight on the paper. When I run the VersaTrans paper, I do a lousy job of affixing the Sticky Notes and can see the misregistration, but it doesn't matter for my applications. Heck, I can even see the printer pull the paper in skewed even with the rails set extremely tight. I haven't taken the printer apart, but it appears that the paper sensors, and/or the pick-ups are right where I place the sticky notes.
I'm glad you can get the sticky notes to run multiple passes through the printer. Mine come off real easy after the first pass! Maybe it's the humidity here.
From: sprinter [#20]
24 Mar 2007
To: Carl (CSEWELL) [#19] 24 Mar 2007
Carl,
I have the 3400. Normally it's not a problem when it is skewed, but when I tried to match the registration to print the second time with the text on the legend plates, it was a real problem. The first couple of inches was usable, but it got worse as it printed further down the page.
The whole point is I don't see how Al's process can be done without having a white edge out of registration to the color image. If you look at his examples, you will see the white outline all over the map. I personaly don't find that to be acceptable and I'm sure my customers wouldn't either.
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