Full Version: Ethanol Fuel – The Boondoggle
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#1]
7 Feb 2007
To: ALL
Ethanol Fuel – The Boondoggle
There is a big thing going on about the use of ethanol alcohol as a way to reduce the dependence on fossil fuels and reducing emissions and being renewable.
Definitely started up by people who do not know science and did not look into the truth.
There have been two scientific studies on how much fossil fuel is required to produce the ethanol. This ranges from the tractor fuel needed to farm the crop, through production and shipping.
The best one found that it takes .8 gallons of fossil fuel to make 1 gallon of ethanol. The other one that went farther and included sundries like drying heat and the fuel needed to produce the fertilizer required by the crop, came out with 1.2 gallons of oil per gallon of ethanol.
Ethanol also has less energy per gallon, and when used in today’s cars is pitiful.
They have switched to 10% ethanol gasoline here. I have tracked my mileage in my car, (automatically tracks it thankfully). 10% ethanol, 7.5% reduction in mileage. That means that I get the equivalent of .25 gallons for that gallon of ethanol.
Taking the best figure for producing ethanol, (.8), and adjusting for the efficiency you get:
.8 / .25 = 3.2 gallons of fossil fuel is used to produce the equivalent of one gallon of ethanol. That will really reduce our oil dependency won't it?
EDITED: 7 Feb 2007 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: basehorawards [#2]
8 Feb 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#1] 8 Feb 2007
You did better than I did. We lost 10% fuel efficiency when we tried it. To make it even worse when we tried it we went west (uphill towards Colorado) on regular gasoline and east (downhill towards the Missouri river) on ethanol.
When it got "cheaper" than regular my wife ran six tanks of it to see if the mileage would improve with no change. I put cheaper in quotes because the makers get a 51 cent per gallon subsidy.
Not to nitpick your figures but you forgot to factor in the fuel needed to haul the ethanol to the gas station - in a separate tanker than the gas. I do not remember the details on this but if it is mixed at the plant it degrades.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3]
8 Feb 2007
To: basehorawards [#2] 8 Feb 2007
Geez, what happens when it sits in the tanks at the gas station and in the car?
Definitely an added factor.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4]
8 Feb 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3] 8 Feb 2007
I recently read an article saying that hemp oil would make a perfect fuel. No processing, other than extracting the oil.
From: basehorawards [#5]
8 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4] 8 Feb 2007
David, David, David,
There you go with that west coast thinking. If we start using hemp oil for fuel then the next thing you know someone will want to start using the fibers for rope and clothes and bags and all sorts of other things. Then we would have farmers wanting to grow it to make money (those nasty capitalists) and then we would have a bunch of crazy teenagers sneaking into the fields to steal a bag or two only to find it is less than effective for their needs. The economy would take off, we would be energy independent, farmers would be able to pay their loans down and life would be good. Wake up David we can't have anything like that happening -
at least not until we get a democrat into the white house. (devil)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
8 Feb 2007
To: basehorawards [#5] 8 Feb 2007
As much as we hear the freeedom from fossil fuel rhetoric, and as much sense as it makes, no matter who ends up in the White House, "the machine" will fight heavily against such a common-sense solution.
Hope I'm wrong, but I think we've all been around long enough to know how it works. :-(
Particularly when our country wrongly draws a hemp = heroin connotation.
From: basehorawards [#7]
8 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 8 Feb 2007
Worse than that my boys were talking about how if you smoke even one marijuana cigarette your skin will turn colors and you will go mad. When I asked where they heard that both answered "at school in the D.A.R.E. presentation." They also learned how to freebase coke in the same presentation. I'm sure that will come in handy for some of the kids at our schools.
But to get back on topic: When the top executives of the oil companies sit on the boards of the car mfrs and the top executives of the car companies sit on the boards of the oil companies there is not much incentive to change is there? If the government did end up mandating a change there would be so many loopholes that it would look like swiss cheese and stink like swiss cheese left on the dashboard of a car on a hot summer day.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#8]
8 Feb 2007
To: basehorawards [#7] 8 Feb 2007
Using L.A. as an example, before I was born, there was a wonderful rail transit system that got everyone where they were going, very affordably and efficiently.
That was until General Motors came along with buses.
The buses marked the end of the rail lines. Most of the tracks were pulled up and paved over.
But guess what? Some forward-thinking people had a great idea:
"How about rail lines, that connect the main cities of Southern California?"
We now have the red line; the green line; the blue line and others.
What's old is new. :/
EDITED: 8 Feb 2007 by DGL
From: basehorawards [#9]
8 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#8] 8 Feb 2007
We have had a guy here in the Kansas City Metro area pushing to reinstall light rail here for several years. The powers that were fighting a battle against him centered around his personality not the merits of the plan. In the last go round I guess they figured they had everyone convinced he was a kook so they just did not talk about the issue. Well, guess what, it passed. Now those same people are running around saying that it will never work and it will cost too much and and and ...
I don't suppose the fact that we have a Ford plant and a Chevy plant in the area has anything to do with it do you?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#10]
8 Feb 2007
To: basehorawards [#9] 9 Feb 2007
James,
Please! You're beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist. :-)
Here's the question:
At which point, does enough evidence of a conspiracy, take it from a theory to an actual conspiracy?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#11]
8 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#10] 8 Feb 2007
:)
EDITED: 8 Feb 2007 by RALLYGUY1
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#12]
8 Feb 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#1] 8 Feb 2007
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#13]
8 Feb 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#12] 8 Feb 2007
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14]
8 Feb 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#11] 8 Feb 2007
Brian,
There's good news for true conspiracists.
Even with irrefutable evidence before their eyes, people have become so complacent that as long as the beer's cold, there's gas in the car and Wheel of Fortune comes on at 7:30 pm, all is well with the world. :-)
Sad, but true. :S
EDITED: 8 Feb 2007 by DGL
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#15]
8 Feb 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#13] 8 Feb 2007
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16]
8 Feb 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#15] 8 Feb 2007
I believe the original diesel engines were designed to run on peanut oil.
Read it somewhere.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#17]
8 Feb 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#15] 8 Feb 2007
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#18]
8 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16] 8 Feb 2007
You are a real history nut , I mean buff..
"Mr. Diesel demonstrated his engine at the Exhibition Fair in Paris, France in 1898. This engine stood as an example of Diesel's vision because it was fueled by peanut oil - the "original" biodiesel. He thought that the utilization of a biomass fuel was the real future of his engine."
My 25w laser runs on Diet Coke and 120v current.!
EDITED: 8 Feb 2007 by PENINSULATROPHY
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19]
8 Feb 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#18] 8 Feb 2007
Mark,
It probably is. His vision's been sidetracked by almost a couple hundred years. :/
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#20]
8 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19] 8 Feb 2007
You have to remember that the VW Rabbit running around town powered by BurgerKing and MickeyD's cooking oil only became pressworthy around 30 years ago. and now with diesel fuel priced higher than gasoline...... well ,
" I'll take a Big Mac and top'er off......."
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