Full Version: Acrylic and Glass Samples
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#19]
10 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1] 10 Feb 2007
David...were Al's samples of OEM laser as you stated or of sublimation toner?
If sublimation toner, I just don't get it. One still has to use coated substrate, buy special sublimation toner and the results are no better than the much less expensive oem laser process using uncoated substrate...just don't get it!
Doug
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#20]
10 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7] 10 Feb 2007
David...not all tiles need be post baked in the oem laser transfer process...just those that have been glazed and fired. I use bisque tile and find that I do not have to post bake.
Doug
EDITED: 10 Feb 2007 by JDOUG5170
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#21]
10 Feb 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#19] 10 Feb 2007
Doug, The samples were made with sublimation and white toner and transferred to UNCOATED glass and acrylic.
AL La Costa
www.atttransfer.com
1-866-900-2830
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#22]
10 Feb 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#18] 10 Feb 2007
Dave, I am not familiar with the OEM transfer process. I am familiar with the sublimation laser transfer.
AL La Costa
www.atttransfer.com
1-866-900-2830
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#23]
10 Feb 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#21] 10 Feb 2007
OK Al, then the next question is why would one want to use a higher cost sublimation toner, and white coating when not needed? Just because they have it? Or, better yet....it helps your sales (devil)
Doug
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24]
10 Feb 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#23] 10 Feb 2007
Doug,
One reason for Al's using sublimation toner may be that a white toner isn't available in OEM toner.
I don't know. That's my guess.
Thanks for the clarification on the post-bake issue with tiles, in stating that bisque tiles don't require post-baking.
EDITED: 10 Feb 2007 by DGL
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#25]
10 Feb 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#23] 10 Feb 2007
Doug, It is on uncoated glass and acrylic with a white opaque backing on the print area. The OEM toner isn,t less expensive per print then laser sublimation.
David Requested some samples from me and I sent them to him.
This thread isn,t for sales but should be educational. It is as educational to me as to the members to know what products like glass and acrylics can be embellished in color by different processes.
I look forward to see the different processes at the ARA show in Vegas.
AL La Costa
www.atttransfer.com
1-866-900-2830
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26]
10 Feb 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#25] 10 Feb 2007
When you say:
Is that referring to a white toner backing, or a piece of white vinyl backing applied separately?
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#27]
10 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26] 10 Feb 2007
Dave, It is a white opaque toner backing. It is all transferred as one transfer.
AL La Costa
www.atttransfer.com
1-866-900-2830
From: Mick [#28]
10 Feb 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#27] 11 Feb 2007
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#29]
10 Feb 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#27] 11 Feb 2007
Al,
Is the white opaque toner applied to the transfer paper, before the color image is added in a subsequent pass?
I think I read a brief overview of your process and that's how it worked.
EDITED: 10 Feb 2007 by DGL
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#30]
10 Feb 2007
To: AL (SUBLIAL) [#25] 11 Feb 2007
Al, I fully agree that this thread is to be educational and I'm attempting to keep it that way. But, along with learning the methods used and the proper technique names it is important that they know the comparative costs.
I can't speak for the price of sublimation toner compared to OEM toner and I am surprised that you are saying that using the white base toner and the sub toner is equal or less expensive, especially when you consider the extra time to lay down the white on the transfer paper (consider the extra time to either change out the toner carts, or the expense of a second printer).
Interesting, went to a site that sells sublimation laser toner and a white solution to do a comparison of prices...none were listed. Guess I'll have to take your word for it Al.
Doug
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#31]
10 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#29] 10 Feb 2007
David, that is as I understand the process.
It is also important to point out that you must either change out the white carts for the sub toner carts or run two separate lasers.
Now, fair is fair. With OEM laser toner to acrylic or glass, after the transfer is done, we do either have to paint over the transfer or lay a vinyl material down to bring out the colors.
Doug
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32]
10 Feb 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#31] 10 Feb 2007
In the overview of the sublimation (white toner) process I read, there was no attempt to obfuscate the fact that the process is neither automatic or something anyone can do, without experiencing a learning curve.
Very few processes differ in that regard.
The hassle-factor of changing toner cartridges can certainly take the fun out of producing one-offs, but in a production run, the transition wouldn't represent a huge inconvenience.
Also, when you consider how the cost of color laser printers has dropped, in recent years, running two printers may be an affordable solution, in lowering the hassle-factor.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#33]
10 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32] 10 Feb 2007
David, nor did I read into the post any effort to "obfuscate"...sheesh.
What I did read is that sublimation (white toner) process is no more costly than OEM laser process....I seriously doubt this and, I challenge Al to put up the numbers to substantiate it.
Doug
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#34]
10 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32] 10 Feb 2007
To answer the question about backgrounding spots. I get that with the Konica. I would say that it is just a bit extra toner splatter, but it is in a very definite pattern. It appears to be mostly yellow. Maybe it is a color correction bug.
It is so faint that you can give one or two quick wipes with lighter fluid to remove them. Lighter fluid will slowly dissolve the toner, but gets rid of the backgrounding fast without seeming to affect image.
I have no idea if the Oki gives the same results.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#35]
10 Feb 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#33] 11 Feb 2007
Doug,
I agree that the numbers will substantiate (or nullify) Al's statement.
Overall, maybe I'm overly-sensitive to the fact that whenever something new comes along, (that people either don't understand or think is impossible), the first course of action, by many, is to shoot it down, as being smoke and mirrors, (vaporware), too costly or completely unviable.
It's usually the same people who have never seen results of the process or met the people behind it.
Personally, I've learned my lesson, in being one of the original naysayers of the Atomic Art process (and then being proven wrong) and I've seen Al taken to task, (on other forums) by those falling just short of calling him a snake oil salesman or a shameless pitch man.
The tangible samples in front of me, say the process is not only possible but viable.
EDITED: 10 Feb 2007 by DGL
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#36]
11 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#35] 11 Feb 2007
David, I have said my piece on this topic and rather than continue to beat the dead horse, I will now back out and watch and see how it all works itself out.
I hopefully have given folks interested in both technologies, food for thought, and that the same careful decision making process one would use before signing up for AtomicArt will be used in laser transfer applications.
But, of course, I can't leave without one last comment. I will believe much more so when AtomicArt can demonstrate their process in a open forum such as a ARA show, When Al can demonstrate his white process in the same open forum. If either of these two processes were being demonstrated, perhaps I'd found some value in attending the show. I did travel to Mick's several years ago to see his process in person. Further more, when I hear from bonafide users of different technologies that they have been able to purchase the product and tell of their experiences...that will help also.
Doug
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#37]
11 Feb 2007
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#36] 11 Feb 2007
I don't think we have any points of disagreement.
I agree that live/taped demos will ultimately dispell (or confirm) the viability of any process.
It's also true that reports from actual users of a process, (as opposed to proponents, such as myself, who base their opinions on physical samples), will carry more weight, in helping people decide if a given process is something they want to become involved with.
It's also true that when a person refuses to answer a direct and valid question about their process (short of revealing trade secrets) people are left to draw (or imagine) their own conclusions, which doesn't inspire confidence.
In that case, silence isn't golden. :|
From: AL (SUBLIAL) [#38]
12 Feb 2007
To: Mick [#28] 12 Feb 2007
Hi Mick, The OEM toner muted into the white tone. Your question is the opposite from how we normally do this when printing onto something from the front. That is we print the color first and then the white on top.
When want to transfer from the backside of a acrylic or crystal award we print the white first and then the color. I haven,t tried that with OEM but now I will and get that info. to you.
Mick, Call me as I would like to try your papers with this process.
AL La Costa
www.atttransfer.com
1-866-900-2830
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