Full Version: EARLY Political Straw Poll
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#41]
14 Feb 2007
To: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#40] 14 Feb 2007
OH! YEAH! NOW I remember. You were the guy that tried to pick me up on the corner in Vegas...Yeah! Now I remember. B-)
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#42]
14 Feb 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18] 14 Feb 2007
The war is over. We already "won" as well as we ever can over there. It's down to wild west style lawlessness now, and is a police action, not a war.
A war involves having an organized enemy that you can defeat. Not a never ending procession of lawless individuals with loose affiliations between each other. They are not an army. They will never give up. They will never stop.
We won the war when we defeated Saddam's army. What we're fighting now isn't an army. It's groups of people from inside and outside the country who don't want us there, and will continue to fight for 1000 years if we stay there. We can't kill them all and there is no organization to defeat.
Go to any major city in the US and say that the police can leave their jobs when the war on crime is won. It will never be won. It can't be because it isn't a war. Calling it a war is just political rhetoric. Crime in a big city is a never ending procession of lawless individuals. So is the current "war" in Iraq.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#43]
14 Feb 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#42] 14 Feb 2007
Hi Dave,
The end game/objective is peace and democracy in Iraq....Everyone knows if we leave now that will not be achieved. Only the military should decide if it's possible to achieve that end, and they should leave when they decide either they have won, or that they cannot win.
Don't kid yourself.....walking away will just give more zeal to those that want us gone.........and when I say gone....I mean from the face of the earth....not gone from Iraq. Ask the Iranian President about how he feels about America.........or Isreal.....That's the mentality that will fill the void if we leave. Make no mistake, we have far more to lose by leaving, than by staying until we get it right.
From: Lisa (TROPHYUSA) [#44]
14 Feb 2007
To: gt350ed [#10] 14 Feb 2007
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#45]
14 Feb 2007
To: Lisa (TROPHYUSA) [#44] 14 Feb 2007
Wait Lisa,
Wasn't Hillary President already? ( insert laugh here)
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#46]
14 Feb 2007
To: Lisa (TROPHYUSA) [#44] 14 Feb 2007
Lisa,
I find it interesting that Hilary garners a great deal of respect from many of the citizens of NY. She is a brilliant women with a great deal of moxie. If she runs not only will she have my vote she will have a little bit of my money.
It is a good thing the Beach Party is about engraving & not politics!
Dee
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#47]
14 Feb 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#43] 15 Feb 2007
The end game/objective was to remove an evil dictator and hand the country back to the people that live there.
We did the first part. We seem to have a problem doing the second part.
They want their religious leaders to control the government. But there are three opposing religions that have been at war with each other for centuries. By staying there we are not, and never will, bring them lasting peace. All we will do is unite the three religious orders against us. At least long enough for us to leave, and then they'll be back at each other's throats. So the only difference between leaving now and in another year or two is how many of our children we allow to die at their hands.
We tried to take peace and democracy to Korea. We tried to take peace and democracy to Vietnam. Peace came about there when we we forced to leave. Democracy is still not there.
You can remove a dictator from power, but if you try to force your ideals onto the people in another country, it won't last if it's not what they want.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#48]
15 Feb 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#47] 15 Feb 2007
I guess the difference between us is that you have given up hope, and I have not.
I believe the military is in a much better position to determine if what you are saying is accurate. They have boots on the ground, and should be able to determine what actions are appropriate at this point.
I believe we have lost the propaganda war and have lost support because of this........You never see any news about the positive developments, only the horrific ones. It's the same thing that makes people feel dejected about society here.....Eventually if you keep hearing bad things about yourself (and your society), you start to believe them, and fall into a self fulfilled prophesy.
Although I agree with your sentiments about the religious factions and risk of civil war, I dissagree with you that we should pull out and bring our military home. Far more problems will come from that....I've already outlined them so I won't repeat myself.
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#49]
15 Feb 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#48] 15 Feb 2007
I definitely agree that neither of us really knows what it's like being there at the moment and can only guess at what might happen if we stay or leave.
I'm not so convinced though that the army leaders are the best ones to decide when to leave. They might know if it's hopeless, in which case it's obviously time to go. But I'm not sure that they know the best things to do to change the situation over there into one where we are not needed anymore. They are trained in fighting and winning wars, but that doesn't make them diplomats or foreign policy experts or experts on how foreign societies think and work.
I think it takes a smart president, diplomats, and foreign affairs advisors to make those choices, of course after hearing the state of affairs from the military leaders.
From: Paul (JACKPETTY) [#50]
15 Feb 2007
To: ALL
From: jeanettebrewer (JEANETTEBREWER2) [#51]
15 Feb 2007
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#50] 15 Feb 2007
Chuck,
You're such a rabble-rouser! This is even more fun than the recent _____________________ thread & that really fun __________________ thread. :-)
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#52]
15 Feb 2007
To: jeanettebrewer (JEANETTEBREWER2) [#51] 15 Feb 2007
Jeanette, you always say the nicest things......thank you B-)
( insert laugh here)
From: GBengraver [#53]
15 Feb 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#27] 15 Feb 2007
Giuliani informed his second wife, Donna Hanover, of his intention to seek a separation in a 2000 press conference. The announcement was precipitated by a tabloid frenzy after Giuliani marched with his then-mistress, Judith Nathan, in New York's St. Patrick's Day parade, an acknowledgement of infidelity so audacious that Daily News columnist Jim Dwyer compared it with "groping in the window at Macy's." In the acrid divorce proceedings that followed, Hanover accused Giuliani of serial adultery, alleging that Nathan was just the latest in a string of mistresses, following an affair the mayor had had with his former communications director.
What a great leader he would make. (insert shaking head here)
Greg
From: Mick [#54]
15 Feb 2007
To: GBengraver [#53] 15 Feb 2007
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#55]
15 Feb 2007
To: Mick [#54] 15 Feb 2007
Neither did John Kennedy. Or Thomas Jefferson, Or Abraham Lincoln. B-)
From: GBengraver [#56]
15 Feb 2007
To: Mick [#54] 16 Feb 2007
Was it kept private??
Was it used by the opposition ad nauseum.
The party that claims to be the party of high moral standards.
Its a party of hypocrites
Give me a break.
EDITED: 15 Feb 2007 by GBENGRAVER
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#57]
16 Feb 2007
To: GBengraver [#56] 16 Feb 2007
Greg,
In that regard, I think we're down to a one-party system. :-)
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