Full Version: Sublimation
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#2]
14 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#1] 14 Feb 2007
Greg,
You are right when you say there are a lot of variables. So it will be next to impossible to give you an exact figure...but I can tell you how long my ink lasted for my EPSON400 with 250ml cartridges.
I managed to get about 11 months of "moderate" use out of my ink.
Throughout the 11 months I have done 7 tile murals measuring about 2' x 3' using 6" tiles....NOT including my mistakes. I have done 60 coffee mugs, 120 desk name plate size no smoking signs, 20 or so trivets and LOTS of misprints and wasted time, paper and ink during my learning curve.
All in all I was pleased with the amount of product I got out of the ink. The signs that I did paid for the ink. The murals are samples for my showroom, however had I sold them they would have paid for the ink many times over.
With all of THAT said, I believe you can figure your paper/ink costs to be about $1.10 per transfer, and that might be high. So THAT is the figure you should use to calculate your prices and profits.....
There are many more folk here with more experience than I, but that is my take on it.
I hope it helps. Good luck
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#3]
14 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#2] 14 Feb 2007
Just top give you a different perspective. I have an 18 month old 1280 with the bulk system. It hasn't operated for two months. I've switched some of that work to the laser engraver or laser printer. My volume might be a little higher than Chuck's but not a lot.
The ink is a problem if you don't use the machine regularly. I'm switching to cartridges from bulk hoping to reduce my down time.
When it's working I love the results and I make money on mugs, nametags and signs. T-shirts aren't competitive and people aren't interested in the advantages of the poly material. ( I work from my home so I don't have retail traffic which might make these sell better.)
I also have a color laser printer (old reliable) which lets me print competitively priced t-shirts in small quantities as well as metal for awards and plates. There are new laser printers on the market for a fraction of the price I paid and which have a more durable toner.
You might want to compare both options before making a decision.
EDITED: 14 Feb 2007 by MIKEN
From: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#4]
14 Feb 2007
To: Mike (MIKEN) [#3] 14 Feb 2007
Hi LaZerDude and Miken
You bring up a good point about down-time. I guess the jets in the printer clog and must be cleaned after use if you think your not going to use it again soon? Say within one month? Then you forget one-month and the next thing the printer is clogged? Then you have to clean before use, so cartridges might be better to start with.
You see I'm looking at one of those package deals, but maybe that's not the best way to go? If I can find say a cheaper mug press and t-shirt press. I already have found a cheaper price for the printer, of course without the bulk ink system. I guess I could buy that later if it takes off. Don't know a thing about using a color copier for sublimation. I take it you would still need a heat press and transfer papers and such? So many questions.
LaZerDude thanks for your input on what you have done with your system. I guess basically what it boils down to is whatever the market will bear in your area. Mine is depressed, so I have to keep prices and cost low.
Thanks for your info
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#5]
14 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#4] 14 Feb 2007
Greg,
There are a lot of folk with a lot of experience both good and bad. I researched for 2 years before I bought my sublimation equipment.
The clogging nozzles are a problem with some smaller printers. Not so much for the large format printers. I had considered the smaller printers when I was looking due to cost. But then I realized that it was an investment in my business ( there are a MILLION, well not quite, things that you can sublimate that would help build your business) so I opted for the epson 4000. I have absolutely NO regrets.
But I digress. If you print a page whether you use it or not, once a month you should be fine. Just put a sticky note on your monitor to remind you to do it.
I have been doing sublimation for about a year now and I think it is great.
If you have not been there yet, another great source for information is www.dyesub.org
That forum is dedicated solely to sublimation and you will find lots of help there.
Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
From: gt350ed [#6]
14 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#4] 14 Feb 2007
We have been doing sublimation continuously, both online and in our retail store, for 6 years. Although we primarily do coffee mugs and steins, since opening our store 3 1/2 years ago, sublimation has found its way into name badges, high school league championship plaques, recognition awards, trophies and things I can't even think of at the moment.
We consider our sublimation efforts succesful and profitable. Having said that, our laser engravers have made so much money in 3 1/2 years, it makes sublimation look like a side show.
We use the Epson 1280 with Artainium inks. We buy the ink in 75ml bottles and fill our own carts using empty spongeless carts from MIS Associates. Having tried other printers, inks, bulk ink systems, etc. over the years, I can tell you that our current set-up is THE way to go with minimal clogging, easy un-clogging and, in general, minimal hassles. This is combined with having finally become fairly expert in unclogging printheads which, as I say, is minimal these days.
Some time ago, in a previous forum discussion regarding ink usage, costs, etc., we calculated that we averaged about $3,400 in sales for each set of filled carts. With our current set-up, I would venture that the amount is closer to $4,000.
By way of example, we have an order in right now for five (5) high school leage plaques utilizing full color dye-sub white aluminum plates. Our sale of these plaques will pay for two complete refills of the carts; color and black. And so it goes.
Having said this, it sounds like you are not utilizing the full potential of your laser. You should not have any trouble making money with it. And if you're not making enough money, my opinion is that sublimation will not fill the void.
It sounds like your market is working against you. You cannot allow your market to dictate price. Ultimately, you will price yourself out of business.
Based on the limited information you have given us, I would seriously consider researching and then utilizing the internet. It can expand your market greatly if done correctly, and assuming that you have something to offer.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7]
14 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#1] 14 Feb 2007
Greg,
What type of work are you doing with your laser?
I think very few people maximize the use of their existing equipment, before calling it a dead end and begin looking for other avenues of income.
In regard to ink jet sublimation, you'll be able to come up with a better price by putting your own system together.
The C88 is a good starting point, as long as you don't use stock sublimation cartridges.
$550 for ink? How about buying 4 bottles (CMYK) of 125 ml each, at $89 ea.
http://www.sublimation.info/id8.html
Did you notice that the TOG bulk ink systems for the C88 are no longer available?
There's a reason for that.
The bulk ink systems for the small format printers present another (troublesome) set of variables, and many people have removed them from their printers, in favor of spongeless, refillable cartridges.
How about $5.50 per cartridge? You'll want to buy 2 sets, so you'll have a full set on hand to change out when necessary.
Here's a good place to buy them:
http://www.inksupply.com/spongless_carts.cfm
You'll also need to buy chips for the empty cartridges and a chip resetter, in order to reset the microchip that tells the computer when a cartridge is nearing empty. Also sold on the MIS site.
The reason I originally asked about the nature of your business is that T-shirts represent an area that (for the most-part) isn't very profitable, unless you're able to charge a lot for small quantities.
You say the economy of your area is depressed.
Doesn't sound to me that you'll find an audience for expensive T-shirts there. You may have an audience for inexpensive T-shirts; but if there's little profit in them, what's the point?
As others have pointed out, there are other ways to introduce color graphics to your customers. None represent the magic bullet, in that, they'll all have their strengths and weaknesses.
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#8]
14 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#7] 14 Feb 2007
From: logojohn [#9]
15 Feb 2007
To: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#1] 15 Feb 2007
I can give you the worst case on ink usage.
We had a customer that wanted a combination of lasered bright gold(not gold ink) and white letters on a black plaque plate that was close to filling up a letter size page.
The only way for us to do it was to sublimate the black background with the white letters hollowed out on ID's laser sub material. After sublimating, it is lasered for the bright gold part.
Each letter size page took 1/10 of the black ink in the cartridge. It is easy to keep track since the sawgrass power driver shows the percentage of ink remaining and it went down 10% after each page.
We new that going in and quoted a high enough price and luckily they
only need to do 11 of them.
We did another job with 21 small plates per letter size page with black text and no background and got over 30 pages from 1 cartridge.
I may be wrong, but I think for sublimating T-shirts you may need to buy
special shirts that will accept the sublimation ink which would be more expensive.
If shirts or fabric are your main focus, the laser OEM toner might work better. I have some fabric paper for it but haven't had a chance to try it yet. Results are inconsistent quality on other items so far.
There may also be other methods. For large quantities it is much cheaper to order them in from somebody that does it all the time with faster and cheaper methods.
I just googled it and there is even a special forum for printing shirts.
HERE
From: Greg (HARLEY1954) [#10]
18 Feb 2007
To: ALL
Thank you all for your input on this subject. Haven't decided what to do yet, but all of your input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks again.
From: jpkevin [#11]
19 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7] 19 Feb 2007
Hi David,
I have not seen problems with the Subliject C88 bulk system. We don't sell may Artainium bulk systems, so I can't speak for that, but it is basically the same as the Sublijet one with just a couple differences in how the ink bags connect to the system.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
19 Feb 2007
To: jpkevin [#11] 19 Feb 2007
My comment was based on printers using the "jar" type bulk systems, where losing the "prime", due to a loss of vacuum or elevation changes in the bottles presented another set of pesky variables.
The Sawgrass "Quick Connect" system is one that I have no experience with. Does the elevation of its mylar bags play a role in how effectively that system works?
From: jpkevin [#13]
19 Feb 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 19 Feb 2007
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14]
19 Feb 2007
To: jpkevin [#13] 19 Feb 2007
Thank you.