Full Version: Burnishers
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1]
27 Feb 2007
To: ALL
Hi all - just thought I would post this in case others have run in to this situation and had come to think that they were losing their mind like I was.
I purchased a .005 diamond rotating burnisher from Bruce Diamond last year and from the start it took way too much material off when burnishing.
Let me go back and explain that I've been using burnishers since they were first presented to our industry. I love them and use them every day. I use them on many different materials.
So that being said, suddenly, with this new burnisher, I could use it on none of my usual jobs or materials.
I contacted BD and they said to send it back to them for them to check. I did, and received the burnisher back with a letter saying they tested it out and it was just fine. Fine for them maybe, but not for me! It performed the exact same when it was returned to me. Burnished like the tension was set too tight. All letters were literally routed, not burnished and I could not use this burnisher for acrylic at all - letters were about a 1/16th deep no matter how light the tension was set. Trust me - I know how to do this because for about 15 years or so since burnishers have been available to us, I've been using them every day. So I'm not new at this burnishing stuff.
I finally got fed up with trying to make this burnisher work for me and tossed it in the drawer. I ordered a new, exact same type of burnisher from Antares and right out of the tube it performs exactly like I expect it to. Light, smooth and crisp letters, but no depth. The result on acrylic is just like a light sandblast.
So the moral of the story - if your new burnisher doesn't perform correctly it may not be you!! I don't know the difference between what BD sent me and the one Antares sent me. According to what I ordered, they should be identical. But they perform completely different. The BD one is useless for all my burnishing jobs. I probably won't be placing any further orders with them, even though many people have told me they are happy with their service. I wasn't. I might try one more time to have them replace the burnisher, now that I have proof that I'm not crazy about how it was suppose to burnish.
Just thought I would pass this along.
Cindy Murdoch
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2]
27 Feb 2007
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 27 Feb 2007
and the Bruce Bit has .005 stamped on the shaft.... wow
I've never had a problem with them, In fact I purchased 3 each 1 1/8 100* diamond drag bits from Antares and lone looked more brown than clear.....and at 12 lbs pressure the tip shattered on the first letter.. Called them and they (she) said I had exceeded the operating parameters of the tip. The other two worked well, even up to 25 lbs on stainless........
Operating Parameters.......?
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#3]
27 Feb 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2] 27 Feb 2007
I always find it interesting that the first premise is that we, as engravers that use these tools every day, have no idea of how to use them or what to expect from them. Do the suppliers thing we set out to destroy our newly purchased, very expensive usually, tools??
There are bound to be problems occasionally, with either supplier. So far, I've had good experience with Antares - never a problem. But I've had people like you say they've had good experiences with Bruce Diamond.
I've never heard of that "operating perimeters" in regards to a tip, but I guess they do have them. I can't imagine any of us exceeding any perimeter the cutter companies would design the cutters to meet though.
From: logojohn [#4]
27 Feb 2007
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 27 Feb 2007
I think it would be real hard to do any gouging while using one.
After trying them or the similar one without dial adjustment, I
wouldn't attempt burnishing without it even with the good adjustments on pressure our rotarys have with the physical and software adjustments.
I don't burnish much anymore since the only thing I used it on was painted brass and the laser does that better.
I am in the minority but I don't like the look of burnishing on gold or silver metal items. I never thought of doing it on acrylic. I wish I had heard of that before we got the laser. It was very hard to get good results without nosecone scratching with the regular .acr quarter round cutters.
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#5]
27 Feb 2007
To: logojohn [#4] 27 Feb 2007
Not having to come to the defense of a lady but Cindy has been doing this for over 20 years, She is ARA-CRS certified and she did mention that:
"letters were about a 1/16th deep no matter how light the tension was set"
I think the diamond was a 90* or 100* to get that depth . I would pull out a loop and take another look.. You might have a "drag diamond in the rough"
.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#6]
27 Feb 2007
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 27 Feb 2007
I have one .005 diamond that is also engraving deep, not as bad as yours is though. I have to remember to check out where it came from.
I did have that problem with a batch of carbide burnishers a long time ago. They did not get the 90* facets on 90*. They were a few degrees off and rather than the surface lying flat on the material, there was a faint angle to the contact. It is amazing how that tiny angle made it a cutter instead of a burnisher. You may need a 75X magnifier to see it, but want to make a bet?
I hate the 'We never had a complaint', or the equivalent of 'You are crazy and we are right', type answers. And that is just what you got.
Call them up and read them the riot act. Tell them you have been doing this probably longer than of their sharpeners, and probably their QC people. Then push with why one bit out of the hundreds does this and they claim the bit is good. Also kick them where it hurts and tell them the bit you just bought from Antares works perfectly and you do not like erroneous lip service. Talk to the head of quality control. Or better yet email them and send carbons to lots of departments there.
They need to know that they lost a customer due to bad product and bad service.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#7]
27 Feb 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#5] 27 Feb 2007
I am using a Featherweight. Can't imagine not using one. And I thought the same - that there must be something wrong with the tip - it was missing, the cut was wrong - whatever. That's why I returned it to Bruce Diamond. But they said they tested it (even sent me a little plate to prove it) and said it was fine. Believe me, once I got it back, I thought I was doing something wrong and I tried every trick in my book to fix "my" problem. Now I find out it wasn't me after all! Which is always a plus:)
Using diamond burnishers on acrylics is something I've been doing for years. I tried using the rotary cutters on acylics, and the main reason I tried the burnishes and use them today is that I hated the weeding!! That drove me to try anything and everything else to get away from picking, picking, picking all that covering out of the e's, a's etc. I can't stand that type of busy work.
The only acylics I run in to problems with are the PDU acrylics. The material isn't as "hard" as the acrylic from Acrylic Idea or American. So I have to be careful to not use a true type font on the PDU pieces or the burnisher will get going side to side to form the true type letter and dig a hole by the time the letter is completely engraved.
The burnisher from BD is clearly marked .005, and they did inspect it when I sent it back, so don't know what the issue is. I'm just really happy to find out it isn't a personal problem:), or an equipment problem but a tool problem.
Cindy M
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#8]
27 Feb 2007
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#7] 28 Feb 2007
From: logojohn [#9]
27 Feb 2007
To: ALL
I figured since she was new to the business* she may not be using one. :/
I scanned the post and didn't pick up on the reference to one. Sometimes if you don't state the obvious, you overlook the solution for them if you assume too much. Actually I don't have enough ram to remember each persons history.
20 years to me is a mere rookie. Sorry if I slighted anyone. (Not that years in the industry or a piece of paper guarantees you are good at what you do.)
*My uncle called me up to his jewelry store to learn pantograph engraving when I was 14 years old . . . in 1967! Anybody have a calculator. Talk about careful when you are learning on $200 Accutron watches(a lot back then) and wedding rings.
Actually I wasn't in the industry from 1975-1986 for the sake of complete disclosure.
Doing mostly awards now, the main purpose we used burnishers for was to get a solid bold letter on painted brass for nameplates and large plaques. A .005 tip would only be used on tiny letters as part of a plaque with larger letters so it would match instead of diamond dragging it. I was just thinking it might be a common problem of too much pressure that even newer machines have not to mention the old Dahlgrens where the featherweight was not an option. I can see where a small tip like that might be more prone to problems. Hey Cindy, with all that work shouldn't your signature be Cindy Murdoch, CRS you earned it, flaunt it! Then us rookies would know better than state the obvious.
EDITED: 27 Feb 2007 by LOGOJOHN
From: UncleSteve [#10]
27 Feb 2007
To: ALL
"Tips for Diamond Burnishing"
Light pressure is the key to successful burnishing. Remember, you are only removing a surface coating and polishing the base material. It is advisable to use a "Feather Weight" spring loaded cutter knob to replace the standard brass knob. This attachment will allow the constant light touch that burnishing requires and allows the tool to glide over any slight imperections in the surface, especially when engraving glass. The surface of glass is always somewhat wavy. Without a spring system the tool will cut too deeply into the high areas showing some chipping, and may totally skip over low areas.
EDITED: 27 Feb 2007 by UNCLESTEVE
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#11]
27 Feb 2007
To: UncleSteve [#10] 27 Feb 2007
That may be what they say, but for glass the only successful way is to use a nose cone and a depth of .001. Those burnishers will show marks on starting overlaps like an 'O'.
When I said that I have one that goes too deep, I am talking about in brass! I missed the part about acrylic. If I used mine on acrylic it would dig a deep hole also. Never a problem except for that new diamond .005 or those ancient carbide ones.
I am fairly certain where I got that bit from, but want to check before posting.
From: Myyk [#12]
27 Feb 2007
To: ALL
You're right when you state that years in the job don't always equal skill.
In fact, sometimes I think that oldies tend to get stuck in a groove and think that their way is the only way. After all most young people often have more developed computer skills and handle modern systems much more confidently.
Witness how young people confidently instruct you as to what font and size they require and often how the work must be laid out.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#13]
28 Feb 2007
To: logojohn [#9] 28 Feb 2007
You are right. I should sign my name that way - I've just been a slacker.
I am a newbie compared to you. I learned to engrave on one of the first TRS80's set up with one of the first Dahlgren's. But I've never engraved using a Pantagraph.
My first job was done with a bank president sitting beside me watching every move while I engraved some weirdly shaped letter opener or knife or some such thing. It made me nervous, but at the same time was quite thrilling. I also engraved something for Glen Campbell during my first few engraving months, and at the time, that was quite the thrill until I found out he tosses most of the awards he receives (or so I was told).
Up until I started engraving (and that was quite a fluke because I had actually been hired to oversee the ribbon department but the engraver didn't show up one day so my boss sat me down in front of the engraver and said here's how this works and left me to figure it out) I never knew anything about the trophy/awards business. I only knew ribbon awards.
But I find this industry fascinating and learn something new about some aspect of it every day, especially through this forum.
Thanks for all the info. I will be getting in touch with Bruce Diamonds. I am going to send the cutter back again with a sample from their .005 diamond burnisher and a sample using my new Antares .005 diamond burnisher and let the samples do the show & tell for me.
Cindy Murdoch, CRS :)
From: basehorawards [#14]
28 Feb 2007
To: UncleSteve [#10] 28 Feb 2007
I love this forum.
I just bought a burnisher and was going to be looking around for information on using it. Did not even have to look. What a deal.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#15]
28 Feb 2007
To: ALL
I checked at the mall today. My gouging .005 diamond burnisher was from Bruce Diamond, purchased from Mitchell Tool while they were going out of business. It works great on glass with a nosecone, but does give some problems when I use it on brass. (No I do not use the same bits for both, I have separate sets.)
I guess that their setup is a little different than Antares on the faceting of the bits.