Full Version: Geo. Knight DK20S Press
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#1]
19 Dec 2004
To: ALL
All,
I don't know how many of you make it over to the DSSI forum, but there appears to be an ongoing problem with a piece of equipment used by many in our industry. In my untechnical opinion, the problem has the potential to result in some serious injury, or loss of property.
I am a not-so-comfortable owner of a Geo. Knight DK20S press. It is about three years old and has not had daily use. I have not had any problems, but I know that the same problems are on the horizon for me and I am about ready to initiate some action on this piece of equipment.
I can no longer sit on the sidelines and wait for some potential loss to take place.
If you have had a problem with this piece of equipment relating to a bad wiring harness, I would recommend contacting the U.S. Consumer Protection Safety Commission. Get all of the information you need at http://www.recalls.gov.
To file an actual complaint, go to http://www.cpsc.gov/talk.html.
EDITED: 19 Dec 2004 by DATAKES
From: Michael [#2]
20 Dec 2004
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#1] 20 Dec 2004
Been there, done that.
First some credentials: I have 35+ years experience in the Electrical trades/industry.
The problem arises if the harness that runs from the heating platen of any attachment contains a splice (not permitted by National Electric Code).
The easiest way to determine if your attachments have this splice is to lightly squeeze the harness at one end then slid your thumb and finger along the length of the harness. If the harness has one or more "lumps" or "bumps" anywhere long the length the harness is spliced, in which case you should contact Aaron Knight for repairs.
What happens: the heating elements use specific resistance wire as part of the temperature control system. In the past G KNight has used compression splices to extend the wire to the needed length. Because the harness flexes each time the press is opened, closed or swung away the compression splice eventually wears away one or more strands of wire, and when enough strands are broken excessive heat occurs and finally burns apart the entire connection.
Aaron Knight swears this isn't so, but he replaced (after expiration of warranty) all my spliced harness attachments with attachments that did not have splices in the wiring harness. All I paid was shipping to the factory (I still think he should have paid for that, too).
Some basic safety precaustions can prevent the problem from occuring when no one is present to control it:
1. Always turn off and unplug any electrical equipment when not in use. Wait 15 minutes before leaving to ensure no more heat is being produced.
2. Keep heat producing electical equipment away from flamables.
Michael
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3]
20 Dec 2004
To: Michael [#2] 20 Dec 2004
Michael,
The burning question is:
"Why, if this is a known problem, and (from what you're saying), an illegally manufactured piece of equipment, do the presses continue to be sent out with potentially defective wire harnesses?"
I realize all models aren't in question, but even one "time bomb" is too many.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#4]
20 Dec 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3] 20 Dec 2004
David,
I got a private e-mail from an individual and wanted to continue to add to this discussuion. I will respect those who wish to remain anonymous, but I at least want to share the correspondance on this issue.
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: Private Messager
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:59 AM
To: David Takes
Subject: George Knight presses
David, while I applaud your readiness to jump into a fight on the issue of
wiring challanges that Geo Knight have...I wonder if you are thinking
clearly.
What makes you think that the 10-15 complaints that have been noted on the
forum represent a large percentage of sales of these products.
I'd be surprised if all the facts were known that the number of wire
failures is even 1%...
I also have a Knight press that I've run for just over 3 years with no
problems at all. And when I was in a retail store one year, it was on
10-12 hours a day...
Just my thoughts....good luck on your adventure.
RESPONSE:
Dear Private Messager,
Thank you for your good wishes.
I know I may be coming on a bit strong on this issue, but someone has to wear the black hat and take some action. I have no intention of getting into any personal or class-action suit on this issue. I will simply be providing the government consumer protection agency with the best facts I can gather. They can make the determination as to whether this is a safe product or not. I am confident that they will make their determination in a very competent manner. I will accept their decision, as they will be assuming the burden of their decision.
You also realize that it were only a handful of Firestone tires that had blown on the Ford Explorers a few years ago. The proportionate number of problems I have seen or heard of is enough to at least take on the responsibility of looking into this a bit further. The fact is, we don't know all of the facts and won't be able to get them from the company whose bottom line is affected most by this issue.
David Takes
EDITED: 20 Dec 2004 by DATAKES
From: Michael [#5]
20 Dec 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3] 20 Dec 2004
First things first, I think, David,
NEC (National Electric Code) has no legal standing, it is not law. NEC is a set of standards built by some pretty smart folks for the purpose of preventing fires who's root cause could be electrical in nature. So, the equipment in question is not manufactured in any unlawful manner (at least as far as use of NEC is concerned).
Why does Mr Knight continue to manufacture the heat press with compression splices in the wiring harness? I don't know that he does, but if that is the case the answer seems to me to be higher profit. Making those harnesses without splices is much more expensive than making them with splices.
Why has Mr Knight taken the stance that it isn't a problem? Your guess is as good as anyone else's. Personally, I think he is trying to do business in the 21st century with overbearing business practices many thought were left in the 18th century; what the customer doesn't know won't hurt me! (insert your own expletive here)
Thing is, consumers (in business and retail environments) make themselves much better informed than they did 200 year ago..or even 20 years ago. The advent of the internet has increased an individual's ability to "find out" about a product by a factor possibly beyond computation. Many would not know about this problem without messages boards and forums like this one. So, when my press burned 16 months ago, I might have shrugged my shoulders, growled a lot and paid big bucks for a new platen, but, I had, just 48 hours prior to the event, read about several other similar harness problems on DSSI forum.
My opinion is Mr Knight should contact everyone who bought this model and replace all the heating platens by shipping new ones out along with a return shipping label. Customer puts old platens in the box, pastes on the label and calls UPS for pickup.
Doh! Silly me!! That would be the ethicaly and morally right thing to do! Can't let that get in the way of profit, can we?
Anyway, check the harnesses for splices. If you have splices, contact G Knight and get it replaced. And contact those url's Mr Takes gave us.
Michael
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
20 Dec 2004
To: Michael [#5] 21 Dec 2004
Michael,
I don't own a Knight press, and wouldn't consider buying one, until I stop reading new reports of an ongoing problem with the problematic heat presses in question.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Michael [#7]
21 Dec 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 21 Dec 2004
Where/when did I say or imply you own a G Knight heat press?
I answered your question then added a safety blurb for anyone that does own one.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#8]
21 Dec 2004
To: Michael [#7] 22 Dec 2004
Michael,
I took your last sentence as being directed to me, instead of in the general tense.
My wife says I occasionally take things too literally. This was one of those times :-)
Thank you for the informative post.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 21 Dec 2004 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9]
21 Dec 2004
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#4] 21 Dec 2004
David,
The anonymous emailer made some good points, though, there's no mention of the specific model of heat press s/he uses. Not all models are manufactured with the spliced wire harness. 3 years of problem-free operation with which model?
Also, since the current membership of the DSSI forum stands at a bit over 2000 people, wouldn't 10-15 complaints from such a relatively small group, actually point to a much larger percentage in the "outside" world?
Also, keep in mind that these are "reported" instances. I gave an example on DSSI, how one person I know (handyman-type) had problems with the wire harness and simply fixed his own press. I imagine that happens frequently.
And finally, how about the people who have no idea this may be a long-running issue? Those people may be told that they're the only ones who've experienced problems. They're also paying for parts and repairs, which should be handled by the manufacturer. (my opinion)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 21 Dec 2004 by DGL
From: gt350ed [#10]
21 Dec 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9] 21 Dec 2004
To David and ALL: I too am the owner of a GK K20S digital swing-away press. It's about 2 years old; maybe closer to 3yrs. old.
In any event, we probably use it 1-3 times per week at best; mainly for Unisub products. We have used it more in the last 18 months than during the first year.
We have not had any problems with it. I love it, although I cannot say the same thing about other Knight products.
I know I posted early on in conjunction with this thread. And I'm not changing anything I said previously. However, as this thread has progressed, I took a closer look at the press and I'm wondering if I'm the owner of a subsequent (corrected?) generation of this model.
I say this because the "harness" on mine has no ability to move or chaf in conjunction with the swingarm. It moves with the arm. And the harness itself is very short and compact, not even needing a splice in my opinion.
And for whatever it's worth...there is no UAL decal anywhere that I can see.
From: UncleSteve [#11]
21 Dec 2004
To: gt350ed [#10] 21 Dec 2004
From: gt350ed [#12]
21 Dec 2004
To: UncleSteve [#11] 21 Dec 2004
To UncleSteve and ALL:
As I said... the cable (on mine) "is very short and compact, not even needing a splice in my opinion". Even if it is "inside the top platen housing", as you mentioned.
This was in reference to someones earlier inference that the splice was utilized as a cheaper method to get length of harness.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#13]
22 Dec 2004
To: gt350ed [#12] 22 Dec 2004
The good news from this thread is...there should be a slew of George Knight presses showing up on the used market that many of you will not be interested in, driving the prices down....I plan on snagging a couple!
I have a 16X20 swing away (no idea what fancy model number they give it) that I have used for about 3 years without a problem. Yes, almost no use in the last year but prior to that, some pretty heavy use...long hours on.
I just discovered that my Compaq computer with a Maxtor hard drive has given up the ghost, only 15 months old. The hard drive is smoked, gone, finished. I suppose I should declare that Compaq and Maxtor make bad product...after all, should not this product last forever! And how dare it die after the warrantee is gone.
I understand a saftey issue maybe in the offering here, but, it sounds like the problems these presses have make themselves known, allowing the user to tend to the danger...either by not using or repairing. I can't begin to tell you how many of my machines develop electrical problems after a year or two of use...they are not built badly, they are not faulty....somethings just fail!
Anyway, for those of you looking to sell off that terrible 16X20 swing away before it burns your house down....I'm looking to steal a couple....
Doug
From: Michael [#14]
22 Dec 2004
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#13] 22 Dec 2004
So, what you're saying is that, because it hasn't happened to you it is perfectly acceptable for G Knight to manufacture and sell heat presses that, due to manufacturing methods, have been identified as posing a fire and electircal shock hazard after the hazard and it's cause have been identified to G Knight on more than one occasion.
I guess that says it all, doesn't it?
From: UncleSteve [#15]
22 Dec 2004
To: Michael [#14] 23 Dec 2004
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16]
22 Dec 2004
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#13] 22 Dec 2004
Doug,
The slew of used Geo. Knight presses on the market at low prices will not be a result of this thread, but because of the engineering quality and the lack of responsibility taken by a company in dealing with potential hazards.
Geo. Knight may have taken on the responsibility of re-engineering the electronics in the DK20S, but I don't appreciate companies who turn a blind eye to a known potential hazard that is in the equipment they have sold. I guess this is why we have government enforced recalls.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#17]
22 Dec 2004
To: Michael [#14] 23 Dec 2004
I'm not saying it is acceptable...I just have my doubts that it is as widespread as the forums tend to make it sound. If it was, I'm quite sure that Knight would be responding quite differently. I've met both the Knights and they do come across as folks that do not care!
I will further add that I just had a starter switch on my 25hp compressor fail after only 18 months. When we took it apart is was obvious that it had been overheated more than once...is it a manufacture error or just something that happens? Should I call the authorities and report it?
By the way, it cost me $260 for the service call and the part...and I'm not complaining, it is part of doing business.
Doug
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#18]
22 Dec 2004
To: UncleSteve [#15] 22 Dec 2004
Go for it Steve...you, the customer are attaching the legs, not me!
Doug
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#19]
22 Dec 2004
To: ALL
Back when AT&T owned all the telephones and leased them to people as part of the phone bill, they lasted forever. Now with people buying their own on the open market, price and features are the selling points not how many decades they'll last. When they break people buy a new one with the latest features.
Some companies compete on price, others on quality.
This thread is introducing a third element, safety. I may choose to save money and buy an inexpensive item knowing it may prematurely break, but I assume its failure won't result in bodily harm.
Many companies wont take responsibility on their own due to the large liability involved. This is why we have consumer protection laws in the U.S.
It costs a company money, and is voluntary on their part, but if as a consumer you want some confidence in an item look if its UL listed. They check for safety not reliability.
I am not familiar with the heat press being discussed, but if it had UL approval it would not shock people. It would have a three prong plug to ground the unit. If the insulation failed, the power would go to ground not you. A three prong plug is not needed if the unit is double insulated. If the wire's insulation fails, there's another barrier to protect the user. Many companies will use a plastic case. UL also requires the plastic to have a burn rating based on the units power source. (plug in is different than "D" batteries, which are different than "AA" batteries.)