Full Version: Newbie having dificulties engraving glass
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14]
5 Mar 2007
To: Swami [#13] 5 Mar 2007
From: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#15]
5 Mar 2007
To: Swami [#13] 5 Mar 2007
The upside if done correctly is a good, clean frosted etch that's considerably more affordable than sandcarving. The downside is that leaded crystal takes much more care, and frankly doesn't mark as well. Optical crystal is fine.
We did 500 beer mugs for a police Christmas party this season that would have been out of the question price-wise had they been sandcarved. Since the mugs we used were inexpensive glass, the laser did a great job on both text and the engraved badge. All they required was a quick rinse with a ScotchBrite pad.
EDITED: 5 Mar 2007 by GREAT_ATLANTIC
From: gingem [#16]
5 Mar 2007
To: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#15] 5 Mar 2007
Hi Doc
I know most of you do glass with a laser, but I have a question pertaining to you saying the cost for sandcarving would be greater than the laser. On a typical 15oz mug or glass on one side I usually do an area of about 3x4". My cost for the mask is $0.60 and time wise it takes about 3-4 minutes to tape and blast the glass. On my engraving machine I figure time to be between $50.00-75.00 an hour but you can only do one mug at a time while I can do many. How much time and cost is it for you to use the laser?
From: JHayes55 [#17]
5 Mar 2007
To: gingem [#16] 5 Mar 2007
Bill - I am not trying to disagree here - I do believe sandblasting looks better than laser engraving on glass (deeper cut gives it a better look).
You said it is only .60 for mask and 3 to 4 minutes masking and blasting - but how about preparing the layout, processing the mask - (photo, laser or cut vinyl mask) and then there is clean up of the finished product - wouldn't those processes need to be included into the cost?
The glass I get asked to do the most is glasses with names on them - 6 for the bridesmaids and 6 for the groomsmen. Each with a different name - so then to sandblast I would have 12 masks to make. With the laser it is quick to do 12 names - I layout my piece size Corel, place a box where I want my text, type the names over to the side and then move one name over to the box center, as that name engraves, I move it out & move the next name to the box center - an so it goes till I am done with my list. As an example what would you charge to do a dozen beer mugs each with a different name?
I am asking all this for knowledge. We are considering adding a sandblast unit sometime this year since no one in a 60 mile radius of us advertises they have one.
EDITED: 5 Mar 2007 by JHAYES55
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#18]
5 Mar 2007
To: JHayes55 [#17] 5 Mar 2007
Joe,
I'll throw our rotary pricing into the mix. If they are the customer's glass and all the same we would charge $15.00 to do the first glass with 1 name and $4.00 for each succeeding mug. If there are 2 different types of customer's glasses (mugs for the guys, flutes for the girls) the first 1 of each type would be $15.00 & each succeeding glass of the same type would be $4.00.
Dee
PS We can do crystal! (devil)
EDITED: 5 Mar 2007 by DEENA-ONLY
From: gingem [#19]
5 Mar 2007
To: JHayes55 [#17] 5 Mar 2007
Hi Joe
I think the problem most people have with sandblasting is that they don't do it so they think the time involved is a lot more than it really is. Here is the exact steps that I take and I will use your example of the 12 mugs:
Using your graphics program, I use Corel, create your artwork for a mug with the name in it's proper place.
copy that artwork and change the name to the next. In my example I made the artwork 3x4" so I can easily but 6-9 on a sheet on of 8.5x11. I print this artwork on my master and develop one sheet of film, time 45 seconds.
I wash the film, 1-2 minutes, (remember this is at least 6 mugs) let it dry while we do the next. Sheet which was developing while we were washing.
Cut the masks apart and stick them on the mugs. Tape around the mask, we use plastic garbage bags and very little tape.
Blast the piece, pull of the bag and there is no clean up except to wipe it when you wrap it and put it in the box.
We are doing a 300 piece mug order for our local PBA and from start to finish, while we still were working on other jobs the entire job too 1 week with only 2 people involved.
Most people are afraid of sandblasting because they haven't done it. A complete good sandblasting outfit costs less than $5,000.00 compared to any other equipment in our field it is very cheap. The big thing about it it is a service that most don't offer and gets you in many other doors! All types of engraving has it's purpose and each is better at something than the next. But if you can offer all of them it makes you the one source for all of a persons engraving needs.
I will eventually buy a laser, mostly for wood and material like that. I still haven't seen a need for it yet to think about the cost involved. Right now we have equipment from hand engraving through 3D CAD milling equipment, which is really great.
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#20]
5 Mar 2007
To: JHayes55 [#19] 5 Mar 2007
When I was working for the Award Assoc. member here in St. Louis we did literally thousands of glass awards most of which were sandblasted. Our process was to apply a vinyl mask, laser the image in a vinyl mask, wrap it and send down for sandblasting. It would be blasted, unwrapped, glued if necessary, washed and polished.
Low end awards were lasered if possible. Glasses were sandblasted.
When I started my own business I bought the sandblasting equipment and after about three years sold it being totally disgusted with the low income, dirt and high labor content relative to income.
There is no question that sandblasting produces a superior image on glass and crystal but in my situation I just couldn't get paid for it--not to mention I didn't like doing it.
One more point which will probably raise some argument--I felt that the number of mistakes or rejects was much higher with sandblasting than with other processes.
From: JHayes55 [#21]
5 Mar 2007
To: ALL
Thanks everyone - good information shared by all.
To follow up with information Dee shared on her charges for engraving.
On a wedding job like I will get in later this week - we will have 6 standard beer mugs and 6 standard wine glasses to do, each with a different name.
Our standard charge is $8.00 per glass - Unless it is something very strange we do not charge setup on groups of 6. Rarely does someone ever question the charge of $8.00 per glass. So the young lady that called yesterday is driving about 100 miles one way to have me do here wedding glasses for a late April event. Sometime being the middle of nowhere and having the equipment to do job is a good thing.
An interesting job that we did last week .........
We did five 28" round wall mirrors - engraved on the front side. The underclassmen girls of Swimming and Diving Team at SIU bought these for the graduating seniors - we arched part of the text around the top then added two other lines of engraving inside the arch. The customers who saw the finished product and the young lady who picked them up were blown away by the unique gift and look we obtained lasering these from the front - as these hang and you walk up to them you get a nice 3D effect.
From: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#22]
6 Mar 2007
To: gingem [#16] 6 Mar 2007
Two different thoughts here, pricing and cost. No matter how you slice it, sandcarving will always cost more than lasering, simply based on time and materials. The laser completes an inexpensive glass mug in just under a minute, with no need for a mask or prep of any kind. Sandcarving requires a sheet (or portion of) inkjet film, mask material, tape and 2-3 times more time for prep and blasting.
But the issue here is really pricing...that's in part tied to those costs. There are far fewer sandcarvers than there are lasers, so we charge a significant premium for that process - sometimes more than the cost of a client's high-end crystal piece. And while engraving is typically included with every product sold in our store, we would charge a premium for this alternative solution if the client required it. That premium would have taken the police department over budget, and perhaps to something less profitable for us.
Our feeling is that you should take every available dollar off the table, and in this case lasering allowed us to do that profitably.
From: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#23]
6 Mar 2007
To: JHayes55 [#17] 6 Mar 2007
On the tedium side, my wife actually stumbled on an alternative for taping medium to larger objects. I'll tease it by saying it includes a kitchen gadget... B-)
From: nicho (ROYNICH) [#24]
6 Mar 2007
To: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#23] 6 Mar 2007
Jim
You've got to tell us.
I'm hanging out and wracking my brain to think what kitchen gadget you could use.
Cling film would be too thin I'd have thought.
Regards
Roy N.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
6 Mar 2007
To: nicho (ROYNICH) [#24] 6 Mar 2007
From: UncleSteve [#26]
6 Mar 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 6 Mar 2007
I have a feeling they use the blender to chop little rocks into tiny chips for the blaster....
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#27]
6 Mar 2007
To: UncleSteve [#26] 6 Mar 2007
EDITED: 6 Mar 2007 by DGL
From: JHayes55 [#28]
6 Mar 2007
To: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#23] 6 Mar 2007
From: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#29]
6 Mar 2007
To: nicho (ROYNICH) [#24] 6 Mar 2007
OK...here it is guys. I don't have a project in play right now, but I'll take a few pictures when I can for a small tutorial if you'd like.
The process involves (.....drumroll please......) a FoodSaver. For those who don't have one, it's a small device that creates vacuum bags in which you can store food for longer periods. The gadget's great! But it's even better in this application...
Essentially you're creating a custom bag in which the crystal gets engraved. Since the FoodSaver bags are at least 6 mil. thick, they're perfect for protecting the glass. Simply start with enough plastic to cover your entire piece, and heat-seal one end. Put the glass in the bag and vacuum & seal the piece like it's a chunk of roast beef. You now have a crystal whatever in a clear, well protected bag, impervious to the grit. Time spent: about 20 seconds.
Now with a sharp pair of scissors or X-acto, carefully cut out the area that requires engraving, slightly larger than your mask, and tape around the opening....4 pieces of tape, another 20 seconds. The vacuum will break of course, but it doesn't matter...we're simply after the bag itself. And the plastic will actually retain its shape on complex curves for just enough time to tape it shut.
Apply your mask using whatever process you're accustomed to (...we use RapidMask exclusively), and bridge the mask to the plastic with just 4 more pieces of tape (double it up if the text is tight to the edges of the mask).....and blast away.
We've tried clear plastic dropcloth, plastic trash bags....pretty much everything to avoid having to tape entire pieces. But this inexpensive gadget is by far the fastest, safest alternative we've found. We do 20-30 pieces of cut crystal a week in golf season, and I can assure you that if I had to spend one more year taping all those pieces, my CrystalBlast would be on eBay by now!
The downside? Large pieces won't fit in the bags, so we're stuck using plastic dropcloth for those.
Pretty slick, huh? :B
EDITED: 6 Mar 2007 by GREAT_ATLANTIC
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30]
6 Mar 2007
To: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#29] 6 Mar 2007
From: nicho (ROYNICH) [#31]
6 Mar 2007
To: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#29] 7 Mar 2007
Phew...I can relax now...
Thanks for that Jim
Regards
Roy N.
From: JHayes55 [#32]
6 Mar 2007
To: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#29] 7 Mar 2007
Great idea. If you get a chance, a set a photos would be nice for everyone to see your step by step process.
My guess is the sandblast companies are currently scrambling to patent your process as well as putting a new label on a lot of Foodsavers. ;-)
From: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#33]
7 Mar 2007
To: nicho (ROYNICH) [#31] 7 Mar 2007