Full Version: New to engraving...
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#1]
19 Mar 2007
To: ALL
Hi,
I am new to this site. I have been reading and thought I would throw a question or two out there if anyone would care to comment. I am actually in the embroidery business and I have a son who has shown interest in adding engraving to our business. We attended the show in Baltimore last year and was drawn to the sandblasting equipment. Later thinking the laser engraver would probably be more useful to the business in general. I already have Corel X3. Does anyone have any advise for my son (and me). Is this field as prosperous as it seems. (I mean with great devotion!) The salesman seem to make it so simple. (I know it can't be). I am sure there is a lot of set up time that we did not see.
We were looking at New Hermes / Universal / and Epilog. Of course each salesman thinks theirs is the best. My son (16) wanted to start out doing trophies and wooden ornaments. ( he already has the accounts), but not the machine. I do not want to buy something that is too little - but I have a tendency of overkill. Any advise entering this industry would be very helpful. I would like to help direct him. He has a great attitude and has been patience throughout our research hours. Sorry this is so lengthy ...Any advise or recommendations?
Thank you in advance!!!
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2]
19 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#1] 19 Mar 2007
I would read the questions and advice given in the tread "starting a new business"
http://engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=6340.1
Many of your questions will be answered and new ones will come forth..
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3]
19 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#1] 19 Mar 2007
Patti,
Welcome to the forum.
Overkill is better than underkill, when it comes to laser engraving equipment; the common wisdom has been to buy as much power as you can afford.
With that said, 40 watts seems to be the wattage-of-choice for many new laser owners.
Used to be 25 watts, which is still decent.
What part of the country are you from?
EDITED: 19 Mar 2007 by DGL
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#4]
19 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#1] 19 Mar 2007
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#5]
19 Mar 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3] 19 Mar 2007
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#6]
19 Mar 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#4] 20 Mar 2007
Dave,
I appreciate your response also. I would like you to know that I do know it is not "easy" and something you can get rich "quick" with. I do and appreciate hard work. I mentioned trophies and ornaments because I would think for my son to start trophies and wood - would be less costly than learning on granite or glass. I was looking for a forum (engraving) where I could speak and get responses from people IN the business not salesman. Thanks for your thoughts.
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#7]
19 Mar 2007
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2] 19 Mar 2007
From: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#8]
19 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#6] 19 Mar 2007
Patti,
You're in a great place for both.
There are a few folks here with very strong and VOCAL opinions about things (y'all know who you are).
We also have some wonderful equipment reps that frequently offer great ideas, as well as different points of view on equipment.
You're bound to get LOTS of responses to questions like you asked. Just know that you should only ask if you want to know how we really feel. ;-)
.....and welcome to the forum!
Cody
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#9]
19 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#1] 19 Mar 2007
Patti,
Welcome to the forum. You will find a wealth of information and helpful people here. I still consider myself a newbie so I will throw in my two cents and even offer you change.
When considering a laser, keep in mind that while it is a tool and a machine, in it's most simplistic terms it is nothing more than a printer, with a little more complex print driver. All lasers do the same thing to a varying degree, depending upon power.
I had thought I had researched my laser quite well when I bought mine, but two things I learned after I purchased it, was to be sure of after sale service and support, ( in my case the rep I bought my machine from did not support corel, and having never used corel before, I was kind of stuck) either through your rep or the company itself. Tech support is paramount, especially during your learning curve.
The other thing I wish I had done differently is to have stretched a bit and purchased a machine with more power. Depending on your budget, buy a machine that has as much power as you can afford. I bought a 25w machine. In retrospect, I should have bought AT LEAST a 50w machine. I would have easily made up the price difference in the time savings on many jobs. A 50w machine can and will work faster than the 25w.
As to what brand of laser to buy, that eventually will become a personal decision. Everyone has their favorites, however Universal and Epilog tend to lead the pack. If you search the forum you will find a poll that listed the four or five major brands and asked the question would you buy one again. That will give you a good start. You will also find lots of information that suggests you actually have some samples of product that you want to create, when your rep does the demonstration for you.
Yes, this industry can be lucrative but it is easy to become distracted by the versatility of the laser. It can produce so many things that it is important to find a niche, develop that niche, and THEN think about what you can expand into. It sounds like your son has already given that some thought.
Also, since you are already familiar with Corel, and I would assume digitizing because of your embroidery, your learning curve will be lessened to a great degree. Add to that. that you have a 16 year old son that is interested, and you should have it down in about 10 minutes ( insert teasing laugh here)
Since you already have an embroidery business, adding engraving is a natural next step. This way you can offer you existing clients another service, which is much easier than trying to develop new clients.
I hope my rambling has made some sort of sense and we ( the forum) wish you the best of luck. You are in good and friendly company here.
Anyway, as I said.......
.....just my two cents. Want change? B-)
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#10]
19 Mar 2007
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#9] 19 Mar 2007
Chuck,
I do appreciate your wisdom and encouragement regarding this field. I am an optimist and I look at engraving as a trade. Something that could help you make money as long as you learn all you can and devote your time and energy. I also figure my son is young and instead of watching TV (ha ha)..just kidding. He is eager to start his own "thing" and I am excited for him. I think it is just great ...that young - I can do it attitude! Anyway..I am rambling thanks for the encouraging words.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#11]
19 Mar 2007
To: ALL
You will get a lot of laser branding customers from your embroidery side of things , they sort of go hand in hand as you are dealing with a lot of promotinal items and have , to some extent , a captive market.
Lasers will also aid the embroidery bus , you can cut all manner of appliques , flocks , materials and even engrave on denim , fleecy material and so forth
I have a different theory than most in terms of power/size , I opted to go for multiple lower powered smaller machines than 1 or 2 high powered massive ones and currently run 6 25 watters with bed sizes ranging from 700 x 460mmk to 980 x 510 mm and am able to do far more production with these rather than have the reserve power for the 1 or 2 jobs that need it.
The only way to make real money with lasers is to get into production type stuff , knick knacks and onesies are a pain in the butt and invariably are not that profitable. The most profitable aspect is perspex fabrication and for that you need a simple wire bender and some pex glueing experience.
so if your business is production oriented , you are positioned well.
Marketing is essential , whatever you spend on your laser , you will have to spend a fair % of that in marketing its services.
The numbers in terms of running a laser daily with all aspects considered are about 2x monthly repayments divided by 20
IE if you pay $700 a month for it , your daily costs are $1400/20 or $70 a day. So essentially your break even point is $70 a dys work.
I do NOT beleive in amortising the machine over anything more than 18-24 months , so base your numbers on that.
We use the 1/2 - x2 rule when dealing with salesmen and machinery.
IE halve the claims in terms of speed and performance and double the claimed costs of running the machine and if it still makes economic sense , then go for it.
In terms of your existing business , a digital print and cut machine like the Roland SP300 or the like might also be a good option , this can print and die cut full colour onto material that can be heat pressed on garments as well as being able to print on all manner of other materials like vinyl , fabrics , meshes , papers and so on. It can even be equipped with sublimation inks for high vol large scale sublimation on fabric.
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#12]
19 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#1] 20 Mar 2007
Patti,
Where in NY are you? It might help you & your son to meet and talk to someone in your local area. I am in Elizabeth NJ just across the river from NY city.
Dee
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#13]
20 Mar 2007
To: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#12] 20 Mar 2007
Dee,
We are in Western New York - near Buffalo.
From: gt350ed [#14]
20 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#13] 20 Mar 2007
However, although laser power is important, and generally the more power the better, it really depends on what you believe you will do with this machine, say, over the next 5 years.
POWER does not necessarily mean SPEED. Power is power from the laser tube. Speed comes from the motion system. A more POWERful laser is not necessarily a faster laser.
As an example, we have two lasers, both Universals (ULS). Our less powerful 25w laser is considerably faster than our larger (table) and more powerful laser.
Another consideration: new versus used. Our first laser was purchased used; although only 18 months "used". We save over 50% of the original cost.
Our 2nd laser was purchased new about 13 months ago. We have less than $25,000 in both lasers combined and each runs perfectly without having had a laser tube replacement as yet. Each has paid for itself in 90-120 days.
Hope this helps.
From: George (GPRIVATEER) [#15]
20 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#13] 20 Mar 2007
Hi Patti,
George Privateer from Rowmark here! I was just looking through your "new to engraving" thread and read where you said you are from WNY near Buffalo. I was born in Buffalo and grew up in Amherst (went to Sweet Home H.S.). Where exactly in WNY are you? Reason I ask is that I make several trips back there each year and I'd love to stop by your shop and say "hi"! I've been living in Ohio now for about 12 years, but I still get back for at least one Bills game a year (with my dad and brother who are season ticket holders), and I'm going to try desperately to get my hands on some Sabres playoff tickets, but I think that will be tough.
Anyway, just wanted to say "hi". I can't really steer you in one direction or another on a laser, but I will say that I agree with those who've suggested you get as much wattage as you can afford. It's kind of like buying a car...sure, you could get by with a 4-cylander, but the 6-cylander will get you where you want to go a little faster :-)
George
From: Boz (CHEDDARHEAD) [#16]
20 Mar 2007
To: ALL
Patti, keep in mind, we like to spend your money.
I do not agree with the higher the power, the better the system. Higher power does offer some advantages, especially when you are into production of materials that eat up a lot of power. But I do agree with Rodney Gold about redundancy. AS your laser engraving side of the business grows, adding more systems makes more sense to me than adding just laser power. If you only have one system, and your system fails, you are out of production. If you have two lower powered machines, and one of them breaks down, then you are now working overtime.
You can start the laser engraving side of the business with a nice professional series machine of 30 watts, and be able to do ALMOST anything anyone else can do. It might be a bit slower, but you can still do it. Also, the higher the power of the machine you are purchasing, the higher the monthly nut you will have to crack. The higher the power of the machine, the higher the costs for long term maintenance will be. If I were going to buy a laser engraver, I would buy a well known 30 watt system with an engraving area of 24" X 12" or 24" X 18" to 20" range of motion. Knowing what I know now, I would buy a used system! (devil) (devil) (devil) (Oh come on, I couldn't lob that softball into the air without ripping it out of the ballpark. Must be getting to be baseball season.)
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#17]
20 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#6] 20 Mar 2007
Engraving wood is certainly the cheaper way to get started and to learn. Small items like wood ornaments make good practice, but will probably not bring in enough money to pay the monthly bill on the laser. They are a small dollar item and if you sell them directly the profit is not bad, but you probably won't sell many. If you wholesale them you might sell more but the profit is much lower.
Specialty items that sell to a narrow market at much higher prices are much more profitable. But until you can build up sales in those markets you wouldn't have enough sales to pay off the laser.
Many people find that doing quantity products is where you can make the money. Doing specialized items for a local manufacturer (either engraving or cutting), by the hundreds or thousands. Or doing promotional items or any other bulk type of order starts bringing in the money at a nicer pace.
And as was said before, a big part of it is marketing. A laser can produce small items fairly fast, but can you sell them that fast? Since the laser is so expensive (figure spending a minimum of $10k for a used one and the other items to get started, or $15k-$20 for a new one, or even higher for a larger more powerful one). Most people calculate that they must charge $1 or $2 per minute of laser time for the laser to be making any money. So if a nice photo on wood takes 20 minutes, you would have to sell it at at a minimum of $20-$40 to make any money. And if you are wholesaling it then the retail price might have to be 2-3 times that. Not an easy sell. Plus you could produce 20 of those a day, but can you sell that many? I could produce about 200 wood ornaments in a 6 hour day, but I can't sell that many each day.
It might be best to spend some time before getting a laser just sitting down and looking at product ideas. The laser is great at engraving certain materials, and at cutting a subset of those materials. But without an idea of what you can manufacture that would sell at a decent quantity and price, or without knowing who might pay for your marking and cutting services, the laser could end up sitting there losing you money.
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#18]
20 Mar 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#17] 21 Mar 2007
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19]
20 Mar 2007
To: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#18] 20 Mar 2007
EDITED: 20 Mar 2007 by DATAKES
From: Patti (ENGRAVINGHELP) [#20]
20 Mar 2007
To: George (GPRIVATEER) [#15] Unread
George,
I am just outside of East Aurora. I know this is an engraving site, but could you privately e-mail me. (pangelp@aol.com) I would like to talk to you about sublimation. I believe you did say you were with Romark.
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