Full Version: Epilog's owner manual!!!
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11]
7 Apr 2007
To: nischchi [#10] 7 Apr 2007
I agree; especially with Harvey's statement.
With the information already at-hand, in PDF form, why not supply equipment owners with a CD, containing that information, instead of providing it, in pieces, by special request?
I'm not singling out Epilog. I think it would be a prudent move on the part of all laser manufacturers.
EDITED: 7 Apr 2007 by DGL
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#12]
7 Apr 2007
To: ALL
I believe the mfrs. are exactly right in providing parts replacement info on an as needed basis.
Maintenance is another matter. If any mfrs. aren't providing maintenance manuals in hard copy or electronically then they deserve all the criticism they get.
I have a Trotec, which I believe to be the best of all the brands, they provide 2 manuals--but, they are in PDF form, which I find much harder to use than hard copies. Besides that they are a little short on content. But for me hard copies are easier.
EDITED: 7 Apr 2007 by MIKEN
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#13]
7 Apr 2007
To: nischchi [#7] 7 Apr 2007
I always wanted such a manual for my New Hermes. I was basically told that no such manual exists because if it was made available they wouldn't be able to make nearly as much money off service calls ($100+ and hour, be it working or travel, and the tech was based 4 hours away).
Universal laser didn't provide any sort of manuals either, but they would at least talk me through any repairs or maintenance that needed to be done.
Not to say Universal was always right when there was a problem. Once I spent over $300 on new parts, including a motor, to fix my rotary attachment at the advice of their support. Turned out the problem was a wire that had managed to come loose.
Sei
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14]
7 Apr 2007
To: Mike (MIKEN) [#12] 7 Apr 2007
You can print hard copy from a PDF file.
From: nischchi [#15]
7 Apr 2007
To: ALL
Have you noticed that Epilog is ignoring us?
No response from them!!!
PRINT NEW MANUAL (DATAIL MANUAL)!!!
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16]
7 Apr 2007
To: nischchi [#15] 7 Apr 2007
I don't think it's a matter of Epilog ignoring the thread.
Not all Epilog techs are forum members and I wouldn't expect those who are to speak, single-handedly, for upper management.
Easter weekend also makes it an unlikely time to have them make a collective decision, or comment.
EDITED: 7 Apr 2007 by DGL
From: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#17]
7 Apr 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#9] 7 Apr 2007
Harvey,
Some companies do that. The trouble comes from folks like me, who do much better with printed matter.
It's harder / less convenient for me to take my computer to the couch, or to a doctor's waiting room. On the other hand, I've been known to take my owner's manuals to study on trips. I will also study them on the couch, rather than watch television.
Another thing about "soft" manuals is that you must know your search terms. If you don't know to look under "freezer compartment" to find "paper towels", you're pretty much out of luck.
In my opinion, the current Xenetech engraver documentation is terrible. It references switches and knobs that don't exist anymore (since they came out with the Viper). It also tells you to do things in the software that result in an error message stating "that function is not available with Viper software".
To me, there is no substitute for well-written "hard copy" documentation.
I've beaten this subject into a pulp in the past, so I'll put my bat down.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18]
7 Apr 2007
To: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#17] 7 Apr 2007
I like hard copy better also, but it costs them a lot more, and something is better than nothing.
Gravograph has a hard copy manual, and the same info in the help screens. Beautifully done but very lacking in some ways.
Such as one item where you come up to a screen that shows radio buttons labeled something like:
2D on surface;
Plotter;
3D;
Bore.
In the manual it will say when you come to this screen select from: '2D on surface; Plotter; 3D; Bore'. But what the heck do these selections mean?????? [The example is more explanatory than some of the selections, I just cannot remember the obtuse terms.]
From: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#19]
7 Apr 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18] 7 Apr 2007
I will admit that there are some areas that Xenetech has done a super job with their HELP files....such as the context-sensitive stuff.
For example, when you press F1 to send a file to the engraver (not really what happens, but it works for the thought process), and click the HELP button, you actually get to select which PART of the "Print" dialog box you need help with. This part is really pretty cool.
Sure it costs money to document what they do. I doubt that the price would go down one red cent if they (ANY manufacturer) did away with all written documentation.
When you buy a new car, why do they supply a written owner's manual? Most new cars come with CD players, so they COULD just supply an audio CD that contained all the info about the car. Why wouldn't that work. I think the answer is pretty obvious.
But why is THIS so much different? (I don't ask that question so that folks can pick out differences.....that doesn't matter. The point is that written documentation is at least as important as "soft" docs).
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#20]
7 Apr 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14] 8 Apr 2007
For the price I paid they should provide a hard copy--leather bound no less.
From: JHayes55 [#21]
7 Apr 2007
To: nischchi [#1] 8 Apr 2007
Nischchi - I would suspect you will get some response from Epilog the first of next week. I have found over the years they have been responsive to my questions and suggestions.
While we wait for a response from Epilog why don't you fill out your profile.
It makes it easier to respond to someone if we have the profile filled out.
Joe
EDITED: 8 Apr 2007 by JHAYES55
From: Mike (MIKED) [#22]
9 Apr 2007
To: ALL
I’ll try to explain our philosophy on manuals. My explanation is not going to be able to provide an immediate solution for nischchi, and it’s not going to change his perception of our manual being “kids stuff’, but I want to at least try to provide an explanation of why we do what we do.
Epilog views the Owner’s Manual as a reference source for operating the laser system, along with basic maintenance guidelines. We have received numerous accolades over the years about the ease of use and the completeness of our manuals, especially when compared to our competition. Because it’s such a good operational manual, some of our distributors actually use it as a sales tool! So, from our point-of-view, we’re doing a really good job of providing what our customers are asking for in an owner’s manual.
What nischchi is asking for is what we would consider a technical manual – which admittedly we don’t have. The biggest reason that we don’t have one is that almost none of our customers want one. They just don’t have an interest in a document like that. They would much rather have instructions available to them on an as needed basis – and this we have.
So, what do we do for nischihi? In the short term we can provide documentation for most of the items that he describes in earlier threads. Some of the information he’s looking for is not documented at all, so it’s not something we can provide. What we do have, we provide freely to all customers that want it. He can contact our technical support team and they will provide him with anything we have. In the long term we’ll have to decide whether we will produce the kind of technical manual he is looking for.
I’m sorry that we don’t have what nichchi is looking for, but when we evaluate what the majority of our customers want and what we provide, most of our customers are telling us that we’re giving them what they expect. For those that aren’t satisfied, we’ve got a ways to go.
Mike Dean
Sales & Marketing
Epilog Laser
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
9 Apr 2007
To: Mike (MIKED) [#22] 9 Apr 2007
Thank you for the official response. We appreciate it.
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#24]
9 Apr 2007
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23] 9 Apr 2007
I very much agree with Mike Dean,
My laser does not come with a "technical manual" either, if I had an Epilog, I probably would not want the "technical manual". I do want someone telling me what to look out for while removing and replacing a part. That is info that you really can't get in a technical manual. I have a technical manual for my embroidery machine, it was written by someone from Korea (i think) and the use of words and the translation does not make sense, So it is very hard to use and try to figure out what they are meaning.
In this day of information at your fingertips, Sorry, but the comprehensive printed manual is and has been gone for quite sometime. When you buy a car, you don't get a technical manual, you just get a book that tells you where the knobs are.
My 2 cents worth, If you want change, Chuck will give it to ya! :O)
~
EDITED: 9 Apr 2007 by ICTJOHN
From: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#25]
9 Apr 2007
To: Mike (MIKED) [#22] 9 Apr 2007
Mike,
Excellent explanation! That really made a lot of sense.
I agree that your manual is much more complete and current than some of your competition. At least in my case, it described the machine that I actually have in my shop.....not just older generations of equipment.
There have been a few times that the manual did not give me enough information. These have been instances where I needed to call tech support anyway, such as in replacing the X-axis motor & belt, and in replacing the laser tube. Your tech support team sent all necessary instructions & descriptions with the replacement parts.
I, for one, am VERY pleased with Epilog's support and documentation.
Cody
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#26]
9 Apr 2007
To: John (ICTJOHN) [#24] 10 Apr 2007
Aah, but go to Advance Auto Parts and you can get a full repair manual for the majority of vehicles released in the last two decades. Armed with that I've been able to save hundreds of dollars doing jobs I feel confident doing that I never would have known were so easy without said manual.
That said, I grew up the son of an engineer who wrote technical manuals. As such I'm the sort of person who would very much enjoy having in my hands a book detailing the machine down the the thread count of every bolt holding it together.
Granted that's an unrealistic desire, and I don't expect it. But it would be fun to have. :)
Sei
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#27]
10 Apr 2007
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#26] 10 Apr 2007
Sei,
But, those books at advance Auto parts were not written by Ford, Chevy or Mercedes Benz, they were written by private companies looking to make a buck by selling you a book.
Now, if we could get a company to write manuals for Epilog, Xenetech, Universal, Laser Pro, et al..., then you would have the info all in one place that Nischchi wanted. But in this capitalistic society, I don't think that book would become a BEST SELLER, hence, not much profit for the writer, publisher, distributer, retailer..............
:'-(
So, I guess it's back to getting the tech sheets as we need them from the tech department at each manufacturer. Besides we wouldn't want them to get lonely like the "Maytag Repairman"!
:O)
~
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