Full Version: New Hermes ITF II
From: sawdr73 [#1]
31 Jan 2005
To: ALL
Hello group. I am new on this forum (about a week looking/reading/learning) and I am trying to learn a little about this deep subject. I am kinda looking for an engraving machine but don't know what I want or need. I have run across a New Hermes ITF II machine that looks to be in excellant condition. It has at least 3 sizes font sets and some material for beginning learning. I do not know anything about these machines. Can anyone "enlighten" me as to how old this machine is, what can/cannot be done with it, what would be a fair price to pay for it, etc.? Any help appreciated. I really think I would rather have a computerized machine but if the price is right on this one it would be a great learning tool.
If anyone has a used Vision 1212 they would consider selling I would like to talk with them.
Thanks for your help and I appreciate the knowledge base on this forum.
Mickey Parker
Vital Signs
McNeil, AR
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2]
31 Jan 2005
To: sawdr73 [#1] 1 Feb 2005
Hi Mickey,
Welcome to the forum. What area of engraving are you looking to get into? Gift items? Signs & nameplates? Light industrial?
I'm not familiar with the NH ITF II, by name. From your description, it's a manual pantograph. If you could post a picture of the machine, I could tell you its strengths and weaknesses.
Generally speaking, most manual pantographs can be had for less than $1,000. Usually much less. Depends on the typefaces and accessories that come with it.
If you want a pantograph that you'll be able to use, even after upgrading to a computerized system, keep your eyes open for a NH GTX Universal. You'll be able to engrave just about anything, including large platters (18') and Revere bowls, up to a 15" diameter.
I have a Universal that I use quite often.
Pantographs are a great way to test the waters, but if business really picks up, you should upgrade to a computerized system, as soon as possible.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: UncleSteve [#3]
1 Feb 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2] 1 Feb 2005
David, one nice thing about having a manual pantograph is the portablility and flexibility.
If there is an opportunity to do a gift show at a church/synagogue/mosque/KofC/etc. you are ready to go and can carry the equipment. Even a motorized pantograph is more convenient than a 50 pound plus (and some are much more plus) unit that needs more than "normal" power to run and you can use your laptop for the bookkeeping end of the business instead of mucking around with dozens of fonts that the customer can't decide from......
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4]
1 Feb 2005
To: UncleSteve [#3] 1 Feb 2005
Steve,
Manual pantographs come in many shapes and sizes. The GTX Universal isn't very portable. Other models, can be carried under your arm.
One of the most portable computerized systems, is the (early) Dahlgren Wizzard. Unlike most systems, it's a single-piece unit.
Most, if not all, computerized engraving systems run on 110V. If a machine utilizes a pneumatic (air-actuated) Z-axis, which necessitates a compressor, there may be a bit more strain on an electrical circuit.
There aren't many pneumatic Z-axis machines out there. Most use stepper motors.
You mentioned typefaces.
Although, the more the merrier, you may be surprised to know that the majority of jobs you'll encounter (Awards, Jewelry) will only require a block (Double Line Century, Triple Line Roman) or script (Double Line Italicized, Upright Script) typeface.
Computerized systems are capable of scaling the font to most any size.
Since pantographs have a limited number of ratios (2:1 = 1/2 the size of the mastercopy, to 7:1 = seven times smaller than your mastercopy) miniature versions of the font (usually single stroke) are necessary for smaller point sizes.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 1 Feb 2005 by DGL
From: sawdr73 [#5]
1 Feb 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2] 1 Feb 2005
Thanks for the warm welcome David. I think I would probably be in the gift/small sign/nameplate area, but it seems that you try to start in one direction and first thing you know, you are headed another! I am looking toward nameplates and awards since I can already do some of that with my sandblasting and dyesub equipment. I am just a one man sign shop in a very small (and poor) area so I need to be able to do a lot of different things. At the present I send my engraving needs to one of the members of this board. He is a great guy and has helped me tremendously and he is encouraging me to "take the plunge" and do my own work.
The MH ITF II is a pantograph machine with an electric motor/belt driven spindle. It is a fairly big machine, so probably not portable. I don't know yet if it is for sale but should find out in a day or two. If it is for sale at a reasonable price, I may get it just to start on and continue sending the "hard stuff" to Keith.
Thanks for your help guys.
Mickey
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
1 Feb 2005
To: sawdr73 [#5] 1 Feb 2005
Mickey,
For what you're talking about doing, if you go with a pantograph, you'll want, at bare minimum, what's called the GTX Super, sometimes called the "Trophy" machine.
Cylindrical objects, up to 6" diameter, as well as everything you've mentioned (and more) will be possible.
Who knows? If you get good enough, Keith may be sending the "hard stuff" to you :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 1 Feb 2005 by DGL
From: sawdr73 [#7]
1 Feb 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 1 Feb 2005
I don't know about the "hard stuff" but Keith knows that what I don't mess up I mess on! I hope I can find a "reasonablly " priced computerized machine since I do have some graphic experience with my sign software. That would take out a lot of screw ups, but not all. If there is a way to mess up, I can find it!
Mickey
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#8]
1 Feb 2005
To: sawdr73 [#7] 2 Feb 2005
Mickey,
If you find a reasonably priced computerized system, you probably won't be working in a true graphics environment.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: slb (SLBOWLING) [#9]
2 Feb 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#8] 2 Feb 2005
I'm also looking to start engraving. And I want to start out small to just test the waters in my location. What did you mean by "true graphics environment"?
Thanks,
Sherry
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#10]
3 Feb 2005
To: slb (SLBOWLING) [#9] 26 Feb 2005
Hi Sherry,
If you've ever worked with CorelDraw or Adobe Illustrator, you've worked in a true graphics environment.
Working in a true graphics environment, means you're creating a layout, placing images etc., often more visually than mathematically, then sending the layout to an output device.
The output device, may be a laser or ink jet printer, laser engraving machine, vinyl plotter or computerized (mechanical) engraving machine.
In the case of old-technology computerized engraving machines, layouts are created through "Autolayout" or "Manual Layout" modes.
In autolayout mode, the operator inputs the plate size, various letter/image heights and margins. The computer determines the line spacing. The computer-generated layout may need some tweaking, in which case, the operator has to "manually" adjust the "baselines."
A baseline refers to the distance, from the bottom of a character, to the top of the plate. The measurements are determined through decimal inches, i.e. 1/4"=.25, 7/8"=.875, etc.
A "Graphic Display" is used to view the layout before engraving. It's a separate function and in most cases, not a very clear depiction of letters or images. It does allow for catching glaring errors in a layout.
If further adjustments are necessary, the operator goes back and forth between layout a graphic display fields, until they're satisfied.
In the case of "very" old technology, there was no graphic display at all. The first engraved plate served that purpose.
Most modern machinery allows you to work in a true graphics environment.
It's to your benefit to learn a graphics program, such as CorelDraw. That knowledge will put you in a good position to enter most areas of the modern awards & engraving industry. Sublimation, laser engraving, vinyl lettering, to mention a few.
To sum it up, I feel it's more important to get involved with engraving, no matter which level you begin.
"Ya gotta start somewhere" :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Mike (EJPUBLISHER) [#11]
26 Feb 2005
To: sawdr73 [#1] 26 Feb 2005
Mickey:
The New Hermes ITF series machines came out in the early 1960s as the industrial market for engraving was opening up. This machine has a separate upper structure which is removable from the base so that, for example, you can lift the top off and place it on the floor and engrave directly into the floor. The base is fabricated from steel and has a pair of movable jaws which can be either moved individually or opened and closed in unison.
This machine was mostly used to hold square flat items (badges, signs, control panels, Etc.). The pantograph, motor spindle, etc. are interchangable with the New Hermes GTX, GTV, ITX, GTX-Universal machines and this machine should have an 11/64" rotary spindle.
You see a fair number of these machines for sale used in The Engravers Journal's classified section (www.engraversjournal.com). These "flatbed" industrial style pantographs are not in high demand today because they are not very versatile for holding various items, as compared to the models mentioned above which have a self centering vise and utilize the vast selection of holding jigs available for them.
Incidentally if you do go ahead with this machine, we have a wealth of information available -- articles published in the 1970s and 80s which discuss everything from identifying the models to preventive maintenance, repairs, and basic operation. Our web site has a complete subject index of all the articles published 1975-present.
You also might want to talk to Bob Laird (Laird Equipment Company, Dresher, PA). Bob is an expert regarding New Hermes pantographs and also deals in replacement parts, type fonts, etc.
Good luck!
From: sawdr73 [#12]
26 Feb 2005
To: Mike (EJPUBLISHER) [#11] 27 Feb 2005
Mike,
Thank you for the informative post. I still do not know if this machine is for sale or not. I will try to find that out this next week if possible. I have been looking at various machines and options and have decided that , for me, I should probably look at a more up to date machine, probably computerized. I am not yet sure what market niche is available in my area and am currently researching that. Once I determine what is needed here, then I can make a better decision on what machine to purchase.
I'll check out the articals online and try to get a little better educated.
Thanks again.
Mickey Parker
Vital Signs