Donation vs. Pay - Engraving Etc. Forum

From:	bluepaw	16 Jul 2005
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	37 of 122

1603.37 In reply to 1603.31
Now that I have stuck my nose in with a couple of posts on this subject, I will make one more comment and then shut up. You mentioned a possible annual subscription price of $75.00. I don't know how that compares with other forums that charge a fee and I suppose it is not set in stone at this time but for me it is a bit expensive. I'm not saying that the information here is not worth that much and more but just not within my budget at this time. $50.00 would seem a reasonable and affordable price. I really hope that none of you take offense that a newbie like me would insert my opinion here but that is all it is and should be taken as such. I love this forum and check in multiple times a day and probably have learned more than most from it. Now I will zip it and let the experts sort it out. "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	16 Jul 2005
To:	bluepaw	38 of 122

1603.38 In reply to 1603.37
Bill, I'm always open to suggestion and your comments are welcome anytime. No need to zip it up. It's difficult to compare this forum to others. It seems we regularly break some of their rules. 1) Although rare, we've discussed the taboo subjects of politics and religion, sexual predators and drugs. 2) We continuously mention other forums of interest. 3) We don't handcuff industry suppliers, by sending them to their room for lightly grinding their axe in an educational thread. 4) We don't rely on advertising dollars for our existence. Maybe I'm answering my own question. Maybe that's why we've become one of the more popular forums :-) Most people are expert at something. If there's anything in your area of expertise which would be of interest to the forum members, maybe you could come up with an article on that topic and earn a multi-year, free-ride scholarship :-) David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL

From:	Laura (ELLEMD628)	16 Jul 2005
To:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	40 of 122

1603.40 In reply to 1603.39

LOL! I like $50 too...eh, $50 / $75 either way that's about a round of golf I'll tell my husband he better pass up this year. ;)

Insert obnoxious laugh HERE!

Laura DeMeyer
Etched in Time Engraving
"Making Memories Last a Lifetime"
http://www.etchedintimeengraving.com
http://www.cafepress.com/pugpugs

From:	UncleSteve	17 Jul 2005
To:	Laura (ELLEMD628)	41 of 122

1603.41 In reply to 1603.40

Laura (and ALL),

The "typical" engraving shop is open 5-6 days a week. That is 260-300 days a year.

Going back to my accounting days, we are looking at .25-.30 per day... I go back to my "argument" that if this forum can't increase the bottom line by this amount, the forum is NOT worth it to that person.

$1.25 per week is ONE cup of Starbucks/Dunkin' Donuts coffee or ONE beer for those of you that prefer that beverage..... It is about 5-7 cigarettes at today's prices in major markets..... This is per WEEK, not per DAY.

So......... we can get healthier without spending a penny more than we do now by just giving up one of the above once a week!

:-)

"Genius ain't anything more than elegant common sense." Josh Billings

From:	RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Doug (JDOUG5170)	44 of 122

1603.44 In reply to 1603.43

There is still the option for the old EE. That forum will still be viable, and will still be a place to go for those that don't want to pay...yes it has some banner ads, but so will this forum.

I suspect there will be a split set of factions. Those that are stubborn enough to shift back to delphi forums EE and continue on for free, and those that want the smaller more active group that you would get with a pay forum. I honestly don't see this forum growing at all without a free trial period if David is looking for 50-75 annual subscription. My experience with people that are internet savy is that they expect most information to be cost free (outside of the cost of their cable bill anyway). The internet is pretty much founded around the free exchange of information....

This should a very interesting experiment.

I have seen a professional photographers forum that has a two tiered system. you must have a certain number of helpful posts on their entry level free forum before you can join their pay forum at around 60 bucks a year. This keeps the "professionals" in a group to themselves and protects them somewhat from the general competition that is out there otherwise I guess. My understanding is that this forum is around 1200 paying members at this time.

Brian G.

From:	Michael	17 Jul 2005
To:	UncleSteve	45 of 122

1603.45 In reply to 1603.27
I love numbers, especially those that are easy (I'm not just cheap, I'm lazy, too) to toss around! :D You might be right, but how about providing some substantiating evidence for that bottom line. Please note I'm not asking for rock solid proof that this forum will make us all rich if we toss our own money in the pot, just some evidence your numbers are real. Added after seeing your numbers to Laura: I spend a good hour a week here. 5% or less of the posts I read could have any positve impact on my bottom line (ie, a tip to save me time or a suggested resource for services or products, etc) If my shop rate is $75/hour, that leaves $71.25 per week that I spend here that has no positive financial impact . Money or time spent that does not create profit is a loss; No matter what the cost of a subscription to this forum, my loss for each week would be $71.25. That's over $3,000 for a year. Like you, I'm quite amazed...that people are willing to pay for this forum just because some one said, "Let's make it a pay format". I think the forum is great. If it becomes a commercial endeavor, that's great, too, and I'll be one of the first to cheer it on, albeit, from an unseen sideline because I won't pay for it, period. Once this becomes a commercial endeavor, the sense of community will go out the window. I think this answers a recent question directed towards me as to why other engraving forums recieve one or two posts a week and why members of other forums come here regularly.
EDITED: 17 Jul 2005 by MICHAEL

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	17 Jul 2005
To:	RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)	46 of 122

1603.46 In reply to 1603.44
Brian, Thank you for reminding people the Dephi "Engravers" forum, which we use as a backup, is alive and well and fully-functional. The times I've mentioned that option myself, had people feeling like I was pointing them out the door. That's not the case. I encourage those not interested in a pay forum to repopulate and revive the Delphi forum. Actually, for the time being, you won't see banner ads on that forum. Before we moved here, I paid for an extended period of ad-free reading. The concept of a pay forum isn't in the experimental stages at all. My wife belongs to www.photoworkshop.com which is a thriving pay site with virtually thousands of members paying $99 per year. As for EE, we're in our 6th year of a "Free Trial." Wouldn't you say that's ample? David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	Ken D. (KDEVORY)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Doug (JDOUG5170)	47 of 122

1603.47 In reply to 1603.29
quote: As for the pay system of this forum being so as to make it a revenue generator for the "owner and moderators"...count me out....unless possibly I become one of ya and can actually use the information. Interesting comment. I know I've only place one order with you so far... But I wouldn't have you as a supplier if you weren't on this forum. (I'm not saying I'm going to stop buying. I learned of your business through your posts.) Ken Devory Jr.

From:	UncleSteve	17 Jul 2005
To:	Michael	48 of 122

1603.48 In reply to 1603.45

Michael, If you are missing out on profitable work just to read the forum, well........ perhaps you MIGHT take another look at your priorities.

I wouldn't expect anyone to come to the forum instead of doing orders UNLESS they ran into a problem and needed help right then and there.

As for specifics on my numbers, I will let you confirm the costs of what you would be giving up in your market.

As for increased income, there are more than enough posts saying "OH! That is how you do it" or "I just saved X steps by trying it your way." Let's not forget the posts "I had a customer ask for...... and I have never done it. Can anybody help?"

BTW, how much ARE the "5% or less" worth?

I am NOT saying anyone should spend a penny on membership unless they feel they are getting their money's worth... but I also don't believe anyone should try to disuade someone from continuing in a "Pay to play" forum just so THEY won't lose their free ride.

"Genius ain't anything more than elegant common sense." Josh Billings

From:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Ken D. (KDEVORY)	50 of 122

1603.50 In reply to 1603.49

Ken,

Your point about the newbies is an important one. A few of the ideas that have been tossed around to entice the newbies are:

1) On the home page of the EE website, list the ten most current threads being discussed.

2) Provide a link to a web page that gives examples of some of our more interesting threads.

3) To allow them to read, but not post questions, for a free 30 day trial period.

From:	Ken D. (KDEVORY)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	51 of 122

1603.51 In reply to 1603.46
quote: ...the Dephi "Engravers" forum, which we use as a backup, is alive and well and fully-functional. It's not in the "Links of Interest" list. === Reading this and past threads, I get the idea the main benefit/reason for 'going pay' isn't the forum, its all the 'other things that will be coming.' I don't know if it's already been considered, and ruled out; another option is to keep the forum free and collect membership for the other features. If the 'axe grinding' rules are adhered to, the forum can become the best marketing tool for the pay services. Ken Devory Jr.

From:	Ken D. (KDEVORY)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	52 of 122

1603.52 In reply to 1603.50

I would go with option 3, 'allow them to read but not post'.
But from what's being hinted at, the forum will only be a part of the offering. Would that 30 days reading extend to the articles and other areas?

The ten most current list might not include "which laser should I buy" or the other topics that are popular with newbies. A chosen sampling would be more valuable. Though someone paying to learn which laser is 'the best' might not be too happy...

Ken Devory Jr.

From:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Ken D. (KDEVORY)	53 of 122

1603.53 In reply to 1603.52

Ken,

I like option 3 as well, because it gives a the prospect a more complete view of what they will be getting.

The way I understand it, there will be a public side to the website and a private secured side. I assume there is the potential to offer advertising opportunities on the public side of the site.

One of the many things I have recommended is establishing a sister website to the EE site that will be used to promote the services of subscribing members to the general public. Sort of a here's-where-you-can-buy website with a search by zip code and service option.

I believe this thing will really grow from the ideas that are shared by the members. It will evolve into something of great value, but it will take time and $.

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	17 Jul 2005
To:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	54 of 122

1603.54 In reply to 1603.53

David,
Personally I think a 15 day FREE trial of EVERYTHING would be more viable. At the end of that 15 days, ones password and sign in is revoked. Period. No if's ands or buts.
When I signed up with SAGE, I got a 30 day free trial. When it was over, I could not log back on.
I think a free trial will be critical to enticing "newbies" ( we were all newbies at one time, in fact, "I" still am a newbie ). Once here if they feel it is of value they will stay. If not, they won't.

Again I think it would be helpful in discussion of this whole idea to let the membership know of what the "offereings" will be, so those that are on the fence will know what it is they will be getting. For reasons un-beknownst to me, ( and I am sure they are valid reasons) that information seems to be being held close to the belt. I think it should be divulged.

Just my two cents. Want change?

From:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	17 Jul 2005
To:	ALL	55 of 122

1603.55 In reply to 1603.54

A commercial, money making venture? It may appear to some that is what is intended, but they are wrong.

At this moment David is paying for the server and the software development, as well as for our tech, out of his own pocket. This is a work of love for him, not for profit.

As far as time, there have been things that a lot of time was spent on, but were decided as not viable. The Ethics Committee thing was only one of them, people told us what they thought and it died a terrible death. So be it, this forum is for the users.

We have been very reticent to mention most things in the plans, because if one does not work out it is vaporware. That is something we want to avoid if at all possible.

David has a lot of ambitious plans. That equals lots, LOTS, of time and some finances also. They need to be done right or will not work right, again time and money.

Quick example. More things like EE Live, with reduced costs due to possible income from the forum. Form a moderator/director viewpoint, think about the time involved in just one event like that. I got lucky and did not have the faintest idea how to set that up. David and Dave did it all, with some help of members.

Profit would be nice, but with the plans I doubt there will ever be any, it will all be plowed back into the membership in one way or another.

Free is great, but a good return for a small investment is good also.

Oops, need to get off the soapbox now.

Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem)

Harvey's Tips Page When you finally understand it completely... it changes.

From:	Dee (DEENA-ONLY)	17 Jul 2005
To:	ALL	56 of 122

1603.56

I drive the Pa & then the NJ turnpikes every day that I go to work. I pay big time tolls. The turpike trip is 77 miles one way and takes me 1hr and 10 min. I could take free roads. Same mileage (approx) but travel time is 2 hours. I'll pay and take the turnpikes.

When I have an engraving question I can do a lot of research and experimentation (and certainly make some wrong turns) or I can log on here and possibly "speak" to someone who has been there and done that. I'll pay the toll.

Dee

Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem)