DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	5 May 2006
To:	ALL	65 of 220

3725.65
Hi Folks, I just got back from a grueling day on the road. The season is beginning. >.< I appreciate the input, good and bad. I truly do. I'd say this thread's been an eye-opener, but most of it's been said, in past discussions on the topic. Your input has me contemplating some tweaks to the plan, but the core concept, is very much intact. My way or the highway? Hardly. With occasional mentions, over the past two years, of my desire to take this site to a subscription format, shouldn't those of you, so adamantly opposed to the idea, (no matter the cost) have taken that as your cue to build a better highway? It's not too late. Build it and they will come. Isn't that the way it works? I must say I was amused, by the threat; or was it a suggestion?; to use an engravingetc.free or some such mutation of this site's name, to launch a competing site. That's an excellent idea. While you're at it, pick up a cup of "Stirbuck's" and a "Rolax" watch to help you pass the time. Very imaginative. :-$ On the topic of money. EE is a sole proprietorship, with myself as its principle. As a business owner, like many of you, I'm not ashamed to say that I expect a profit from this business. In the same breath, as a business owner, I'll turn money back into the business, which will directly benefit the members of this site. Here's an odd dynamic, that I've never been able to fathom. Maybe some of you have the answer: Why is it that people in this industry will spend tens-of-thousands of dollars, in equipment and materials; not to mention hundreds, if not thousands more, traveling to trade shows and attending paid seminars, only to conclude that a single dime, spent in the direction of this site, with its time-honored track record of providing expedient assistance, is an utter waste of money? This site has always relied on collective input. Nobody, (if they're being honest), can say they haven't (at some point) gained knowledge, they didn't originally have, as the result of being a forum member. It's late and I'll leave it at that. I can't think of anything to add that hasn't been covered in my previous comments. David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	sprinter	6 May 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	66 of 220

3725.66 In reply to 3725.65

David, I would like to thank you for all the hard work and dedication you have put into this forum, your vision has been interesting at times but overall it has been great. You have every right to make this forum subscription based, and I wish you the best.

Boy does this "Stirbuck's" taste good this morning. The idea of engravingetcfree.com was not meant to be a threat or suggestion or to compete with engravingetc, it was meant to be an alternate highway for members that choose not to subscribe to a paid forum. From the comments from many members an alternate highway is needed to continue the sharing of free information and help when needed. I realize SMC is available, but it really is slanted more to the wood side of the business. Possibly a different name should of been used, but consider it a compliment to your great vision.

EDITED: 6 May 2006 by SPRINTER

From:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	6 May 2006
To:	sprinter	68 of 220

3725.68 In reply to 3725.67

I am glad you took the time to see the code, a great learning experience. You have seen the results first so it probably makes more sense.

David is very serious about someone opening engravingetc.free. He has never been afraid of competition and has no qualms about that happening. If someone wants to do it it is fine with us. We may even learn something from it. Friendly competition is always good for both sides.

We wish all the best, that is sort of what this forum is all about.

Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem)

Harvey's Tips Page When you finally understand it completely... it changes.

From:	sprinter	6 May 2006
To:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	69 of 220

3725.69 In reply to 3725.68

Hi Harvey,

Actually I have taken David up on his offer and have opened www.engravingetcfree.com this morning. I want to stress, it is not to compete, but to continue the flow of free information and help. Everyone is welcome and I hope both you and David stop by to post. The site is very rough and will take some time.
I'm looking for moderators if your interested :D

From:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	6 May 2006
To:	sprinter	71 of 220

3725.71 In reply to 3725.69
That is a good thing, really. I will be by after the weekend, out of town Sat-Mon as usual. Thanks for the offer, but it is getting busy here and the finalization of what we are attempting is also eating up more time. Also I need to devote some time to my business. I truly wish you the best of luck. See you there later. Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem) Harvey's Tips Page When you finally understand it completely... it changes.

From:	spudislander (WILLM)	6 May 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	72 of 220

3725.72 In reply to 3725.65
Hi David, I don't think you'll find anybody opposed to you making money off of this venture. Most if not all will agree that you should be compensated monetarily for your efforts. This is a business for you. I think either this announcement is premature or you have done a poor job selling your vision as to what benefits members will recieve. Besides a library of clipart (most have or don't need) what else are you offering as a benefit for the subscription? This is the question that will be the deciding factor for the majority of members. I know you have been suggestioned to death. I am sure your decisions make sense to you but as you can see from this thread it doesn't to the majority of members. I will expect to see participation at this point begin to decrease and I think it will be only a matter of time (shortly I expect) to see a migration to another forum. All the bravado in the world will not change this from happening. Here goes my unwanted suggestions. 1. leave the forum free - it will continue to grow and become the major community of the industry. It can become a revenue creating cornerstone for your business in many other ways. 2. Develop other revenue creation models from the success of the forum, including a subscription service for other value added benefits. i.e. your clipart library, perhaps monthly articles, charge to have classified advertisements. I don't see any concern about charging for advertising as long as there are no restrictions about open discussion in the forum. Believe it or not there are many other trade magazines that do offer unbiased articles on products without fear of retribution from angry advertisers. Maximum PC comes to mind first. Develop the success of the Forum into an actual organization. Negotiate group benefits for members. There are so many other ways to genereate income off of the success of this forum, that I'm sure a man of your creativity will have no problem becoming the Bill Gates of engraving :-) I think you are confused by the participation of the core group as being worth the cost of membership. Many come here and participate because of the relationships that have been built through this media. Most will not pay for that continued benefit. It is appearing that your business model is holding those relationships hostage and as a result there will be negative backlash. I wish I could communicate these messages through this media as well as I could live but that is for the future forums ;-) So to reiterate the intention of this post. WHY? should I join??? I hope you have more to tell me than this forum. Will

From:	Pete (AWARDMASTERS)	6 May 2006
To:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	73 of 220

3725.73 In reply to 3725.68

David, Harvey and any other powers that be.

Why the absolute aversion to advertising. The simple use of Yahoo or Google contextual ads on each page would earn more than enough to pay the costs of operating the forum.

I am sure that David and the mods have great plans, it might be a good idea to define them as part of the reason to pony up.

David with his usual blunt force approach is doing very little to sell the idea. Perhaps he should put down that 2x4 and offer something of value for the money. You see, the value of the forum is its members, not some packaged clipart crap that you can get anywhere (almost all corporate logos are available free and I can get a cazillion free clip art images for much less than a hundred bucks).

ITPS ( It's the people stupid). That is the value of this forum. So here is a great idea, why don't we just chase most of them away?

Pete James
Awardmasters
http://www.awardmasters.com

EDITED: 6 May 2006 by AWARDMASTERS

From:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	6 May 2006
To:	sprinter	74 of 220

3725.74 In reply to 3725.69

Sprinter,

The free site will be a great alternative for the EE family to stay together in some form. I would hate to see all of the relationships that have been developed here to completely unravel simply because of a change in the direction of Engraving Etc.

When the time comes, we are anticipating a substantial fallout. When the dust settles, we hope to build interest over time with the new business model and a foundation of professionals who recognize this as an opportunity to invest in better business tools of which the forum exchange will only be a part of.

I hope you will not be opposed to David introducing the new features of the website as it grows. It will take time to see value in what it is we are doing, but until then, I am glad everyome will have a place to call home.

From:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	6 May 2006
To:	ALL	76 of 220

3725.76 In reply to 3725.73

I've always considered Google contextual advertisements to add a bit of cheesiness and cheapness to a website. When I see these adds on a website, it reminds me of how cheesy I think it is when a golf course owner allows advertising on their scorecards. This option really doesn't fit our plans.

The clipart feature, which some people are discounting, will become a great feature of the site. There will be nowhere else on the internet with a searchable database of graphics for mechanical engraving machines, in addition to all of the vector art.

I do agree that we do need to stay away from corporate logos, especially with sites like www.brandsoftheworld.com available. Why tie up the server space for these?

From:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	6 May 2006
To:	sprinter	77 of 220

3725.77 In reply to 3725.75

Sprinter,

I only have so much time to go around, but will register and pop in when I have time. I have been struggling over the past couple weeks to stay on top of all the posts here. I guess that's a good thing, but I always find a moment to get my daily fix.
:-)

EDITED: 6 May 2006 by DATAKES

From:	spudislander (WILLM)	6 May 2006
To:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	78 of 220

3725.78 In reply to 3725.74
Hello David, Talk about putting the cart ahead of the horse >.< What's with the secrecy?? let's see these proposed advancements first What better business tools?? Are we supposed to ante up on faith?? I don' t think so. Maybe those other business models should be pursued independently from the forum. C'mon 1266 registered members - SELL that. I am not unique in my feelings or business sense. Have I learned enough over the past years to justify a membership - definitely. Will I continue to learn enough to justify a paid membership to an organization that will be crippled by an exodus of valuable resources (people), that I will not be able to obtain freely elswhere - Highly doubtful. You guys, especially stuntman are doing a very poor job in selling or justifying me or anybody else in spending money here. If this isn't addressed soon, I suspect the future expectations here to be greatly over estimated. Will

From:	UncleSteve	6 May 2006
To:	sprinter	79 of 220

3725.79 In reply to 3725.75
While I understand the need for free information and your desire to help promulgate it, I really do think it is in very poor taste for you to continue to promote your brand new forum and solicit members in the very place you are refusing to support. David, David and Harvey are much more politically correct than I am... They won't tell you that it is just plain wrong to try to take away the members here. No matter how you try to sugar coat it, that is just what you are trying to do. Get an instant membership. Do you also go into other religious institutions to solicit new congregants for YOUR place of worship? You have made your point and advertisement in numerous messages. How about giving it a rest for now? "You can build your business by getting more orders from your present customers or work on taking your competitors customers. Just don't do it in your competitors store!" "Genius ain't anything more than elegant common sense." Josh Billings

From:	Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)	6 May 2006
To:	spudislander (WILLM)	80 of 220

3725.80 In reply to 3725.78
Will, I will quote an earlier comment I made. quote: When the dust settles, we hope to build interest over time with the new business model and a foundation of professionals who recognize this as an opportunity to invest in better business tools of which the forum exchange will only be a part of. We plan to make all of our introductions with the unveiling of the website. Like with any business model, we will adapt to the market response and grow from there. They didn't build Rome in a day, but once it was finished it was a pretty nice place to be. We hope this is what happens with the EE website, forum and educational events. It will be a great place for award and engraving industry professionals to visit and also use as a resource.
EDITED: 6 May 2006 by DATAKES