that is the question...

I am contemplating purchasing the equipment to be able to offer die sub. I don't have any specific call for it right now but I see a lot of potential having that available.

I know less about dye sub equipment than I did about lasers so I am really at a loss. I have been looking at equipment on bestblanks.com and they seem to have a variety of packages that fit most any price range. I haven't checked anywhere else yet, I am really in the very beginning stages of my research. I am never one to purchase based solely on price and I almost never get the cheapest of anything - I would rather grow into something gradually than grow out of it quickly... It looks like I can get two printers, a dye sub and inkjet transfer, 16x20 press, software, remote ink tanks for both printers and 100 sheets of 11x17 paper for just over $4,000.00. This would allow me to do dye sub as well as inkjet transfer - do I need both?

So, those of you that do dye sub - do you see a lot business with that equipment or is it more of a convenience factor to be able to offer your other clients that service?
What are the typical things you use it for?
What are the "not-so-typical" things you use it for?

Any advice is very welcome!

Thanks,
Gary

Edit: I guess I should learn how to spell it before I offer it... Die sub vs Dye sub

About 2 years ago I decided to get into dye sub and purchased an Epson 1280 with a bulk system. I think I have about $1300 invested. I also have the Magic Touch color laser system which I've had for several years.

With the laser system you can mark anything but it is less than ideal for things subject to wear. Coffee mugs for example cannot be washed in the dishwasher. Besides marking metal and some name tags I do a fair number of t-shirts with this machine and it is good for that application. I do limit myself to white shirts but can do any shirt material. These wash and wear very well.

In about 6 years the machine has been flawless. Today you can buy similar machines for about $400 where I paid about $2000.

On the other hand my dye sub process has not been so smooth. Because of my light volume the inks clog or air gets into the cartridges and the image is lousy. When it works the image is superior to any other that I've seen. This equipment takes more maintenance than anything else in my shop.

The other limitation is the substrates. You must use polymer or polymer coated materials for everything. These are more expensive in all cases.

T-shirts cost $1.50 for laser but $5.00+ for dye sub. Metal is more expensive as are mugs. Mugs, though are dishwasher safe and come out looking beautiful.

I just decided to scrap my bulk system in favor of re-fillable cartridges but I haven't set it up. Re-fillable cartridges are very inexpensive and you can still use bulk ink.

If the re-fillable cartridges don't solve the problem I'll probably stop offering the service or have somebody who has better equipment and volume like David make the transfers.

Gary,
Go to www.dyesub.org if you have not already been there. Lot and lots of good information about dye sub.
I am still new to it, but I bought my system about 10 months ago with the express idea of doing architectural tile murals. ( Back splashes, showers etc.)
My personal philosophy is to get the best that I can afford and grow into it, so I purchased an Epson 4000 ( now defunct but still supported), a Geo Knight swing away heat press with a shuttle so I can load one side while pressing the other, and Sawgrass inks.
It took me about two years to bite the bullet. Some folks told me to run away from it, others told me to embrace it, and still others told me it would be fine. After 10 months of using the process I have only had minor glicthes which tech support helped me get through. My printer has yet to clog even after sitting idle for a month, and only recently did I have a color correction problem, which I attribute to my ink levels.
Is there a market? I believe there is, and the more I delve into dye sub, the bigger the market becomes. Do you have to create your market? Quite possibly. But given the VAST number of items that can now be subbed, it really does open a door with a lot of possibilities.
I hope this little bit has been of some help to you.

Thanks to everyone for your input. I have a lot of research to do and this helps tremendously. The link to DSSI has enough info to read for a few sleepless nights...

Thanks again!

Gary

Hi Chuck,

Just to let you know that 4000's are still in stock and available. They are running out quickly though.

If your working with the 8 color system (Epson 4000) , some say that it gets better colors when doing artwork murals on ceramics, etc.. Also, "from what I've heard", Epson dealers can not work on a machine after it gets configured for Dual CMYK. It must be re-configured back to the 8 color machine if your going to have an Epson dealer do repairs. This is from my research.

We would together with several other decorators that have their 4000's configured to run Dual CYMK, so that is why went that direction. It's said to be much faster in the Dual CYMK mode. Time will tell.

One of our contacts uses his 4000 strictly as the 8 color unit, and work not ever consider changing to the Dual CYMK.

It's kinda, to each his or her own preference.

David,
Is the a difference in ink consumption? And once a system is configured for 4 color can it be reconfigured to 8 color? I am assuming from your post that the answer to this is yes.

"From my understanding" it can be re-configured back, and it can be changed from working with 110ml carts, or 220ml carts, or the refillable (best way to go if you have the money) or you can add this feature a cartridge at a time.

This seems to be one reason that the Epson 4000's are flying off of the shelves. Not sure when this will be available on the Epson 4800.

I "believe" that companies like Johnson Plastics are now configuring the Epson 4800 to run "somewhat like" the Dual CMYK mode, but have two different set of inks, where you could then do sublimation inks, and the Chromablast inks for t-shirt printing on the same machine.

Kevin Lumberg.... chime in here.

Hi Chuck,

The advantage of dual cmyk is essentially double the speed. Two heads putting cmyk out with one pass instead of one with smaller amounts of 8 total colors.

The part that gets lost in this speed issue is can the substrate handle the speed....Meaning..... can the media take the faster deposit of ink with less drying time. With dye sub....you have to be careful not to oversaturate the transfer paper or you get pooling and cockeling. The way other larger format printers deal with this is with speed control, and the ability to reduce ink with certain combinations with the rip that runs the printers.

Consumption would just be twice as fast...not twice as much ;)

The dual CMYK setup is much faster and more cost effective per print than the 8 color setup. The eight color setup has a slightly larger color gamut that it can hit, but I have not seen a big issue with this. Overall, I like the color reproduction of the dual CMYK better than the 8 color 4000. Now on the other hand, I like the overall color production of the eight color 4800 the best of any of the printers. (slightly better than the Dual CMYK 4000) However, the 4800 is much slower than the 4000. In my opinion, the bottleneck of most sublimation businesses, is waiting for the printer to print the transfers, so, again in my opinion, the 4000 Dual CMYK is the best sublimation platform currently available.

As far as getting it worked on by a service person, I just spoke with an Epson Certified repair facility, here in town, and he said that having a 4000 converted to Dual CMYK would not prevent them from working with them. They would only work on them, whether they were 4 or 8 color, if they were no longer within the 1 year warranty. If it is still within the warranty, Epson will do a "whole unit replacement" of the machine. If you are a business address they will ship you a new printer next day, and if you are a residential address they will send it two day.

I have not had any problems with the ink being laid down too fast with the dual CMYK setup.

Hope this helps.

Kevin,

Does Johnson Plastics sell ArTainium ink or just Sublijet?

I'm asking, because I heard there's an issue with ArTainium ink and hi-release transfer paper, in that, it tends to blur or run on the paper.

Apparently the formula of the ink (ArT) has been changed.

Hi David,

We do sell both Artainium and Sublijet inks.

When I used to have my business, I used Artainium inks with the Epson 3000. I was using the Texprint 95, and had no problems. After a while, I started having blurring issues when I printed yellow next to black. They would run into each other. I talked with the Beaver Paper people at a trade show, and was told that that was an issue, but they had the new Texprint XP, and had taken care of that issue. I used the XP paper and it worked great........for a while, and then I started to have the blurring issue again.

I did some testing using the Truepix, and our JP paper, and with the Texprint paper, and I found that there wasn't much difference in the images between them. We have discontinued the Texprint paper.

The accuplot paper is a thinner bond (21 lb) versus the 31 lb of the JP and Truepix. In my testing, I have gotten better color with the heavier bond paper, so that is what I prefer.

So to answer your question......I think it is a paper issue rather than an ink issue.

For anyone considering entering the world of sublimation, you might want to read the thread at DSSI regarding a new offering of Laser Sublimation being introduced by Colorstar.

I for one would not be buying inkjet today, unless I absolutely had to have larger format, without taking a look at what they are offering.

Doug

Hi Doug,

I agree and disagree with your statement about Inkjet sublimation versus laser.

I agree that people should check out ALL available technologies before purchasing any equipment. They need to find the technologies that best fit what they are looking for. There is not currently ANY technology that does everything. You may very well need a mixture of technoligies.

Laser (both sublimation, and non-sublimation) has its pros and cons, and inkjet certainly has its pros and cons. Neither is perfect.

I certainly believe that inkjet sublimation is a very viable and profitable business. If you have the proper equipment and support.