BallStars-Be Careful - Engraving Etc. Forum

From:	bobkat	24 Jun 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	41 of 71

4161.41 In reply to 4161.36
There may be plenty of good things to say about Ballstars. I have no dealings with them and nothing more than a theoretical interest in the topic. I asked in my first post if anyone had GOOD experiences with them. Like I said, these days you can get sued for anything (or nothing). If you post here and say you will no longer use supplier ABC, you are conducting a personal boycott, whether you use the word or not. If you tell others they shouldn't use them either, are you guilty of being the instigator of a boycott? If others join in and say they too have had negative experiences with supplier ABC (as evidenced in this thread), are all of the people guilty of conspiracy? If that is the case, then Mark better be looking over his shoulder from now on because he did just that in post 4161.10. The paranoia in this thread is so thick you could cut it with a knife. There have been many posts here that are negative toward one supplier or another, (and not just by me!), yet this thread seems to have taken on a life of its own. Although being prudent is a good thing, I refuse to live my life in fear.

From:	UncleSteve	24 Jun 2006
To:	bobkat	42 of 71

4161.42 In reply to 4161.41
Bobkat, The point seems to be evading you. Anyone is welcome to state the facts in their own case and say they wouldn't use the supplier again. The problems arise when third parties, ie YOU, talk about and around starting a boycott against a vendor you have never had dealings with. That is instigating, not making public personal experiences. "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean no one is following you" "Genius ain't anything more than elegant common sense." Josh Billings

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	24 Jun 2006
To:	bobkat	43 of 71

4161.43 In reply to 4161.41
Bobkat, It must be a matter of perception. I'm not seeing the paranoia at all. If I were living in fear, why would I personally contact Ballstars and make them aware of this thread? I felt an obligation to bring both sides of this story to light. I told the owner, if Mark was making patently false statements, I would delete the thread immediately. I was asked to delete the thread, regardless, but advised against it, on two counts: 1) There's an element of truth to Mark's story. If Mark is completely out of line and making libelous statements, Ballstars should pursue their legal options with him. 2) Deleting this thread, would result in an acrimonius backlash, that would spread through the forum, creating a major disruption. That's not a theory. It's based on past experience. No paranoia. Just trying to be responsible and prudent. David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	bobkat	24 Jun 2006
To:	UncleSteve	44 of 71

4161.44 In reply to 4161.42

That is your personal opinion and has no basis in law. Whether I had dealings with the vendor is irrelevant. (Unless you can find the "instigator statute") I simply posed a question, as a possible solution to a problem.

There is no point that has evaded me, I just don't agree with you. The discussion has changed from what may or may not be legal, to what is acceptable to post on the forum.

Here is the legal part: To be a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, a boycott must have the effect of denying the supplier's access to the market. The forum is not that powerful, if it were, any negative comments posted here would be actionable.

If the word (or action) of a boycott is not allowed on the forum, that is fine, but lets not confuse law with forum protocol. Some of you don't agree with me on the legal issue, and that is fine. I have no intention of calling for a boycott of anyone. I guess if we haven't been able to persuade each other at this point, we will have to agree to disagree. >.<

From:	Barbara (RGILE)	27 Jun 2006
To:	precisionlaser	46 of 71

4161.46 In reply to 4161.10
It's too bad that we always get to learn the hard way. It just amazes me how deceitful some people can be over greed. Good luck, they will get theirs. People like that won't get ahead. They might for a while, but not for long. Barb Barbara Sample RGile Engravers

From:	Jer (DIAMOND)	2 Jul 2006
To:	ALL	48 of 71

4161.48
I do not know if an organized boycott is legal or illegal but I have a friend that is a District Judge. His favorite saying is "anyone can sue anyboy over anything". I have heard him say it a million times. The best thing to do is make sure you are right, then go ahead.

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	2 Jul 2006
To:	Jer (DIAMOND)	49 of 71

4161.49 In reply to 4161.48
Jer, I think it's a good thing that industry suppliers; especially those who do business through licensees; see these messages and keep in mind that, even though snagging "big fish" from their licensees, may be "business as usual", those with knowledge of that practice aren't likely to sign on, and definitely aren't likely to recommend that others sign on. That just may have them thinking twice (or thrice) before circumnavigating a licensee, in the future. David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	2 Jul 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	50 of 71

4161.50 In reply to 4161.49
Who would license a process if they knew that the licensor was going to compete with them? Not me. To me it is dirty dealing bordering on implied fraud when selling a license. Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem) When you finally understand it completely... it changes.

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	2 Jul 2006
To:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	51 of 71

4161.51 In reply to 4161.50
quote: Who would license a process if they knew that the licensor was going to compete with them? Harvey, I'm certain you were posing a rhetorical question to all, but just in case, "Not me." :-) David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	2 Jul 2006
To:	UncleSteve	53 of 71

4161.53 In reply to 4161.52

Oops!

I try so hard to be grammatically correct. :-)

Guess I'm feeling a little "street" today. :-)

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA

EDITED: 2 Jul 2006 by DGL

From:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	2 Jul 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	54 of 71

4161.54 In reply to 4161.20
Two things that I have learned in business is 1. My enemy's enemy is my friend...in business, a competitor of a competitor is my associate. And 2; Without action there is no resolve. The best way to put a chink in the armour of a company like this is to get people to stop using them. Every client they lose to a competitor is a slap in the face to them. They screw over enough little guys to get a bigger piece of the pie and those little guys stop using them, they find out soon enough that they have shot themselves in the foot. This thread, I believe makes everyone in here informed, but who would we use in place of these guys? The glass is neither half empty or half full; it is, however, ready to accept more.

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	3 Jul 2006
To:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	55 of 71

4161.55 In reply to 4161.54

Franklin,

Because Ballstars is a proprietary process, with proprietary materials, there are no competitors.

Sometimes, in industry, a company with a project they don't want others to know about, will farm out several components to separate factories, so none of the individual factories know what the finished product will be.

Because Ballstar licensees have to buy all materials, (balls) print media etc. from Ballstars, the licensor (Ballstars) knows when there's a big fish on the line.

I imagine some of the big fish approach Ballstars directly, in an effort to cut out the middleman.

At that point, a reputable licensor would direct such business back to the licensees.

It has to be very tempting for Ballstars to jump directly on a large account, but falling to that temptation, with word of that practice hitting the streets, will work strongly against their chances for building a network of licensees.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA

EDITED: 3 Jul 2006 by DGL

From:	bobkat	3 Jul 2006
To:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	56 of 71

4161.56 In reply to 4161.54

The answer would be nobody. The world will not stop turning if this product is not in the marketplace. At some point, if they keep screwing over their licensees, either they will have to completely market the product themselves, or it will dry up and disappear for lack of distributors.

From:	UncleSteve	13 Jul 2006
To:	ALL	59 of 71

4161.59 In reply to 4161.21
For those interested in or wanting to confront Ballstars, they will be on the east coast at: The Awards & Custom Gift Show Baltimore, MD August 24-26! The Awards & Custom Gift Show is dedicated to awards and recognition professionals. Join in the excitement of the new show in Baltimore, August 24-26, where you will see the top awards suppliers in the industry displaying their equipment and wares. If you're in the awards business, this is a great opportunity to meet one-on-one with some of the industry's biggest names. "My Karma ran over your Dogma!"

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	13 Jul 2006
To:	UncleSteve	60 of 71

4161.60 In reply to 4161.59
Steve, Ballstars will also be at the NBM Long Beach, CA show, coming up next week. I told the owner, I'd drop by and introduce myself. No confrontation. Just a chat. David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA