Wraps vs. Press - Engraving Etc. Forum

From:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	3 Mar 2007
To:	ALL	1 of 48

6228.1

Just a continuation of the previous discussion from the General Board.

Ed and Chuck....it sounds like you've been able to generate significant volume pretty efficiently with a press. I'm curious about this because this is one of the reasons I've been leaning toward the wraps. Cost is another factor. Without having a market in place, I'm a bit leery of shelling out $800+ when I can dip my feet into the water for less than $25/wrap.

Your thoughts?

Jim

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	3 Mar 2007
To:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	2 of 48

6228.2 In reply to 6228.1

Jim,
Having never used a wrap, I cannot speak about with any certainty. However, it is a viable way to start. John Montgomery uses wraps. He would be a good one to talk to about it.

My suspicion however is that once you start getting the volume, you will find the wraps cumbersome for all the reasons I mentioned in the previous thread.

Only, YOU know for sure....again go to www.dyesub.org and do a search there as Ed suggested. You will find lots of information as well as a review of some mug presses.....Join the forum over there as well and you will find lots of help.

When I was looking into this, Ed was instrumental in my decision to go the mug press route. I do not have ANY regrets.

Good Luck and keep us posted....so to speak...( insert bad pun laugh here)

From:	logojohn	3 Mar 2007
To:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	3 of 48

6228.3 In reply to 6228.1
quote: With the press, I put the transfer on the mug, let it sit in the press, take it out by the handle without gloves, put the next mug in and move on. We bought a nice mug press for $100 from someone closing shop 2 years before we knew what to do with it. So when we started sublimation, it was easy to use it. I to, think the wraps sound like a lot of prep work. The mug press is just in and out although one at a time. The speed is not that critical to us. We sell the sublimated mugs for $8 so usually only do under 20 at a time. If somebody wants over 50 you can send it out to somebody to do pad printing or what ever they use on them for under $2 each complete. I don't think I would spend $800 for the mug press if I had to get it new. We have a cheap hobby press now. I am looking at the dc16. It has an optional mug adapter for $250 if we needed it (only 1 side at a time I think, maybe somebody knows for sure) whereas the mug press can go all the way around at once. lj

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	3 Mar 2007
To:	logojohn	4 of 48

6228.4 In reply to 6228.3
quote: The mug press is just in and out although one at a time. John, I'm sure you know, but in case you do not, NovaChrome has a satellite unit for their press so you can do two at a time. But you are correct. With the press, it's in and it's out. No messing with bolts, wrenchs, gloves and burnt fingers. Not to mention Jim would need TWO sets of wraps to be efficient. quote: The speed is not that critical to us. We sell the sublimated mugs for $8 so usually only do under 20 at a time. Without being familiar with your market, my knee jerk reaction is that you are leaving money on the table.....I know Ed charges more than that for quantitie under 10........just a thought. I would hate to see you lose money.

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	3 Mar 2007
To:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	5 of 48

6228.5 In reply to 6228.1

Jim,
LogoJohn has a point. Do an ebay search and see what comes up.

There are other presses too, that are less expensive, but my research pointed me to NovaChrome.

My personal theory, ( and it works ) is "Don't but cheap tools" It's an investment in your business.....and you need it to work...when you need it to work B-)

Just another two cents from the mind of Chuck. Want change?

From:	logojohn	3 Mar 2007
To:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	6 of 48

6228.6 In reply to 6228.4

We don't sell that many at $8 so I thought it might be too high!
Would be an interesting price survey.

Usually its somebody that contacts the ASI people looking for them so we just do the low quantities. We have a couple on display in the showroom and website but not much activity.

The mug press we got is one that sells for $800. They just came to us trying to sell out and just wanted something for it. I guess they hadn't heard of ebay.

EDITED: 3 Mar 2007 by LOGOJOHN

From:	Mick	3 Mar 2007
To:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	7 of 48

6228.7 In reply to 6228.2
Chuck, quote: My suspicion however is that once you start getting the volume, you will find the wraps cumbersome for all the reasons I mentioned in the previous thread. In our old decorating shop, 1 person could easily decorate 600 mugs / shift using wraps. There is a shop in Texas that can decorate over 3,000 per day using wraps. They consistently do top to bottom decoration as well. Mick Cactus Equipment & Supplies www.cactus-equipment.com 800-440-6847

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	3 Mar 2007
To:	Mick	8 of 48

6228.8 In reply to 6228.7
quote: In our old decorating shop, 1 person could easily decorate 600 mugs / shift using wraps. There is a shop in Texas that can decorate over 3,000 per day using wraps. They consistently do top to bottom decoration as well. That's a heap o mugs. :D

From:	Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE)	3 Mar 2007
To:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	9 of 48

6228.9 In reply to 6228.1

I have 5 wraps and just did a batch of 24 mugs. I prepped the first 5 and put them in the oven. While they were baking I prepped the rest. I let the wrap sit for about 5 minutes inbetween batches and it was cool enough to handle. I have two "ove gloves" and they are the best $30 I have spent. I can take a mug out of the oven and hold it for as long as I want to and my hand barely gets warm.

After all was said and done, it took me 15 minutes to prep all the mugs, 80 minutes of baking, and 15 minutes of cleanup - a total of about 100 minutes. I know 80 + 15 + 15 = 110 but 10 minutes of prep time was while the first batch of mugs was in the oven.

While the mugs are baking for their 16 minutes I was able to do other things, unlike a press where you have 4 minutes. Since I can do other things while they are cooking I don't think it really takes 100 minutes away from other work. I don't think you could get away with that with a press - in 4 minutes you would just get started on something else and have to go right back to the press for the next mug. With a press you are going to be there for a minimum of 96 minutes and you won't be able to leave and do much else inbetween mugs.

For me, it was a no-brainer to spend just over $100 for wraps compared to $700/$800 for a press.

Just my .02

Gary

From:	UncleSteve	3 Mar 2007
To:	Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE)	10 of 48

6228.10 In reply to 6228.9
What kind of mugs are you baking for only 16 minutes? The hard coated/dishwasher safe mugs I use require much closer to 19-20 minutes to get a good image.... "Good friends can be a real annoyance."

From:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	4 Mar 2007
To:	ALL	11 of 48

6228.11
quote: Only, YOU know for sure....again go to www.dyesub.org and do a search there as Ed suggested. You will find lots of information as well as a review of some mug presses...Join the forum over there as well and you will find lots of help. I've actually been a lurking member for quite a while now, Chuck. There really is quite a lot of useful information there. But I never stop with just one source ;-) And I do agree with you that "cheap" is not an option when it comes to tools....used from someone other than a manufacturer (with a warranty) is out of the question. From whom did you buy your Novachrome press? quote: The mug press is just in and out although one at a time. The speed is not that critical to us. We sell the sublimated mugs for $8 so usually only do under 20 at a time. The efficiency is important to us, logojohn. And while mugs sound like a precarious business because of breakage, we could easily face 1,000 units in a single order if we offer the product. The real question is, which solution is best over time with the same or better quality results. quote: In our old decorating shop, 1 person could easily decorate 600 mugs / shift using wraps. Mick....your wraps are among those we are looking at. The dssi folks seem to really rave at the quality. Have you considered a special offer for the members here at EE? (angel) quote: Since I can do other things while they are cooking I don't think it really takes 100 minutes away from other work. Excellent post, Gary....are you using a small convection oven in the shop or is it possible to use a full-size standard electric oven? Jim

From:	precisionlaser	4 Mar 2007
To:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	14 of 48

6228.14 In reply to 6228.13

Doc,

I visited a company on Friday that does a lot of mugs. Their set up was a gang of Epson C86s/Artainium Ink Bulk Systems/mug wraps and several (about 12 if I remember correctly) Hamilton-Beach convection ovens. I discussed this set up with them, and they said that the multiple C86s were a lot cheaper than a larger printer and gave them critical backup when one unit fails. I asked them why not use a conveyor oven and again they had a good response: backup and convenience...apparently a conveyor oven takes up a lot of space and takes a while to heat up to the correct temp.

I've also spoken to other "grey beards" in the business and all of them are unanimous: if you're going to do volume, use wraps and ovens.

For what it's worth...

Mark Dickens
Precision Laser Art, LLC
www.precisionlaserart.com
866-716-0300/901-888-1019

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	4 Mar 2007
To:	Laser Image (LASER_IMAGE)	15 of 48

6228.15 In reply to 6228.9
quote: After all was said and done, it took me 15 minutes to prep all the mugs, 80 minutes of baking, and 15 minutes of cleanup - a total of about 100 minutes. I know 80 + 15 + 15 = 110 but 10 minutes of prep time was while the first batch of mugs was in the oven. Gary, With a press and a satellite, one could do the same quantity of mugs in 60 minutes......including prep....... What an interesting discussion this has become.

From:	LaZerDude (C_BURKE)	4 Mar 2007
To:	precisionlaser	16 of 48

6228.16 In reply to 6228.14
quote: I've also spoken to other "grey beards" in the business and all of them are unanimous: if you're going to do volume, use wraps and ovens. I wonder if they are the same ones that steered me to the mug press? ( insert devious laugh here). quote: For what it's worth... Your experience is worth a lot Mark. Keep it up.

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	4 Mar 2007
To:	ALL	18 of 48

6228.18
Although I've never used a mug wrap, over the years, the "common wisdom" has been wraps are the way to go for volume orders and more importantly, reliable top to bottom coverage. Don't forget that there's opportunity in wraps for objects other than coffee mugs: http://laserreproductions.com/heatwrap.html David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC)	4 Mar 2007
To:	precisionlaser	19 of 48

6228.19 In reply to 6228.14
quote: Their set up was a gang of Epson C86s/Artainium Ink Bulk Systems/mug wraps and several (about 12 if I remember correctly) Hamilton-Beach convection ovens. Sounds like quite an operation, Mark! Unfortunately I don't have the room for all that additional equipment....but I do like the sound of their oven-of-choice. A quick Google found the unit at Walmart for under $80! Judging by the size of it, I'm guessing about 4 mugs will fit in it at once....correct? Jim
EDITED: 4 Mar 2007 by GREAT_ATLANTIC