Donation vs. Pay - Engraving Etc. Forum

<body> <h1>Full Version: <a href="https://www.engravingetc.org:443/archive/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.29">Donation vs. Pay</a></h1><a name="a1603_29"></a><p><b>From: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.29">#29</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.27">#27</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> <p>OK, time to pipe in.</p> <p>First, we need to disband the concept that this is a "free of cost" forum. Although we are asked for any money, it is expected that we will share information whenever possible with each other. This takes our time away from our businesses, just as much as it does the moderators time to create the forum and moderate. (fortunately, there is little or no moderation needed).</p> <p>I'm not in the same business as you folks, I don't engrave, I don't sandblast, and I don't sublimate beyond personal stuff at Christmas. And yet, I read the posts nearly everyday....it is not time yet for me to stop learning.</p> <p>I'm not an advocate for a pay based forum, certainly not until I see some of the mystical content that we are being promised. Nothing makes me more angry than when my cable company raises my rates, promising more channels in the future...never to be seen without even more increases! I feel that at this point, the bulk of the information offered here is as a result of the efforts of the members...and compensation is the shared learning.</p> <p>Now, when we see something of content, it certainly is to be considered. I believe that the concept of 900 active members, even lurkers is a hugh stretch, be surprised if there was half that many...depending on price set, it could be such a paltry amount that it would barely cover expenses.</p> <p>I have belonged to many organizations over my professional life, all have collected at least a modest fee to belong...to cover expenses. The group sharing of information and expectation of mutual sharing was the other "fee".</p> <p>As for the pay system of this forum being so as to make it a revenue generator for the "owner and moderators"...count me out....unless possibly I become one of ya and can actually use the information.</p> <p>Nuff said from me!</p> <p>Doug</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_30"></a><p><b>From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.30">#30</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.25">#25</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> <p>David,</p> <p> I could not and never would argue the value of this forum. Why it is so populated when others are not, I do not know, but I suspect it has something to do with the sense of commraderie that I do not feel on other forums. This forum has a "personality" to it.</p> <p> But I would dissagree that you are missing an opportunity by not talking a bit about the new features that will become available when the site goes to a pay venue. <br /> The reason I say this is two fold. First, members that are on the fence about paying would be able to have a sense of what they would be getting for their money, and secondly, it might spark some ideas and discussion about features and benefits that you and the other moderators have not thought about.<br /> If you intent truly is to provide for the betterment of the members and the industry as a whole ( and I believe it is), then I think member input would be very important.</p> <p>My two cents. Want change?</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_31"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.31">#31</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Laura (ELLEMD628)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.26">#26</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> Laura,<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Perhaps a brief trial period should be considered if the forum goes pay.</div><br /> <br /> Our subscription software, which will be integrated with PayPal, is configurable. We'll likely have <i>Trial, Quarterly and Annual</i> membership options.<br /> <br /> Naturally, the annual membership will represent the best value. I may as well blurt it out now. The number I have in mind for an annual membership is $75.<br /> <br /> I know, I know, I'm often lecturing about not undercharging <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span><br /> <br /> Think about it!<br /> <br /> That's roughly equivalent to <i>one hour</i> of an average shop's labor rate.<br /> <br /> It's <i>less than half</i> the amount of an annual Awards and Recognition Association (ARA) membership and <i>only $15</i> more than a non-member pass to the annual ARA Las Vegas show.<br /> <br /> It's <i>slightly</i> more than the annual subscription rate of a trade magazine, though <i>substantially</i> (about $50.00) less than an annual International subscription to a trade magazine.<br /> <br /> That's the extent of my hard sell for the pay site. <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span><br /> <br /> Of our 900+ members, we have about 10% who show up religiously, every day. Assuming that <i>core group</i> comes along when we put up the toll booth, I consider that an excellent start. We can and will build from there.<br /> <br /> I can relate to your observations of going from dial-up to high speed internet. Where I live, high speed internet wasn't even an option until just recently.<br /> <br /> Once high speed internet became available, I signed up. It was more than I wanted to pay for internet access, but all it took was about 5 minutes (or less) of actual use and I couldn't imagine <i>ever</i> going back to dial-up.<br /> <br /> I'm hoping people who visit the forum for the first time will see the value of becoming a member and consider us the <i>high speed internet</i> of the online forums. <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span> <hr /><a name="a1603_32"></a><p><b>From: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.32">#32</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.29">#29</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> <p>Doug, I am sorry to hear that none of the members are buying any of your wood products for engraving......</p> <p>Oh! That would make you an industry supplier, wouldn't it?</p> <p> <span class="e_shock" title=":O"><span class="e__">:O</span> </span></p> <hr /><a name="a1603_33"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.33">#33</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.30">#30</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> Chuck,<br /> <br /> Suggest away. I believe we've done that in the past, but who knows? Maybe some new ideas will emerge.<br /> <br /> Using my experience with <a href="http://www.dyesub.org">www.dyesub.org</a> as an example, it's the DSSI forum itself, that I personally see as the main draw.<br /> <br /> I've occasionally read some of the articles and referred to the Industry Supplier listings, but day-in and day-out, it's the instant access to the almost-live give and take with others in the industry that brings me back. <hr /><a name="a1603_34"></a><p><b>From: Laura (ELLEMD628)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.34">#34</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.31">#31</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> David,<br /> <br /> I can swing $75/yr; it's significantly less this forum is worth, but it's an affordable start for us frugal people. Education IS money well spent. (And I'm still paying on my student loans by the way) <span class="e_tongue" title=":P"><span class="e__">:P</span> </span><br /> <br /> I haven't subscribed to <i>any</i> industry magazines or memberships yet :::gasp::: <span class="e_shock" title=":O"><span class="e__">:O</span> </span>(Shame on me!) but I will get around to it. As I've said, this forum is most valueable to me and therefore my main priority right now. <hr /><a name="a1603_35"></a><p><b>From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.35">#35</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.29">#29</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> <p>Doug,</p> <p>To continue to grow around the foundation of this forum it is going to take a great deal of time to administer the effort, and that could potentially mean the investment in a salaried individual focused specifically on that task, along with the support of our stupendous tech, John Fish.</p> <p>So much of what David wants to do is in the conceptual stage because it takes so much time to move it from concept to action. It will not happen on its own, without David sacrificing a substantial amount of his time, therefore, a graet amount of his persnal income.</p> <p>You may look at it as David trying to make an extra buck. This couldn't be further from the truth. I know the man and I look at it as David's willingness to work his tail off to build an even better tool for me to become a better businessman with stronger technical skills, which will in turn contribute strongly to my bottom line. We just haven't given him the incentive to sacrifice his time and income. This is why the enhancement process will continue to flow at a snail's pace, rather than at a speed that will end up improving our bottom lines more quickly.</p> <p>Say what you may, but I would love to provide enough revenue for David to give 100% of his time to this effort. We could hit the road running and see exactly what he has in the plans for us.</p><p class="edit_text">EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DATAKES</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_36"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.36">#36</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.29">#29</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> Doug,<br /> <br /> Some may say the move to a pay site will signal the beginning of the <i>serious</i> discussion.<br /> <br /> While I'm not looking to exclude anyone, the curiosity seekers and casual readers, faced with the decision to pay, may eliminate themselves. <hr /><a name="a1603_37"></a><p><b>From: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.37">#37</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.31">#31</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> <p>Now that I have stuck my nose in with a couple of posts on this subject, I will make one more comment and then shut up. <br /> You mentioned a possible annual subscription price of $75.00. I don't know how that compares with other forums that charge a fee and I suppose it is not set in stone at this time but for me it is a bit expensive. <br /> I'm not saying that the information here is not worth that much and more but just not within my budget at this time. <br /> $50.00 would seem a reasonable and affordable price. <br /> I really hope that none of you take offense that a newbie like me would insert my opinion here but that is all it is and should be taken as such.<br /> I love this forum and check in multiple times a day and probably have learned more than most from it. Now I will zip it and let the experts sort it out.</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_38"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.38">#38</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.37">#37</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> Bill,<br /> <br /> I'm always open to suggestion and your comments are welcome anytime. No need to zip it up.<br /> <br /> It's difficult to compare this forum to others. It seems we regularly break some of their rules.<br /> <br /> 1) Although rare, we've discussed the taboo subjects of politics and religion, sexual predators and drugs.<br /> <br /> 2) We continuously mention other forums of interest. <br /> <br /> 3) We don't handcuff industry suppliers, by sending them to their room for lightly grinding their axe in an educational thread.<br /> <br /> 4) We don't rely on advertising dollars for our existence.<br /> <br /> Maybe I'm answering my own question. Maybe <i>that's</i> why we've become one of the more popular forums <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span><br /> <br /> Most people are expert at something. If there's anything in your area of expertise which would be of interest to the forum members, maybe you could come up with an article on that topic and earn a multi-year, free-ride scholarship <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span><p class="edit_text">EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_39"></a><p><b>From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.39">#39</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Laura (ELLEMD628)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.34">#34</a>] 16 Jul 2005</p> Laura Laura Laura..... what if he was thinking $50? Now you gave him ideas ...... shame on you!!! <span class="e_grin" title=":D"><span class="e__">:D</span> </span> ( insert laugh here). Personally I can only afford $10 a year.... ( insert another laugh here ) <hr /><a name="a1603_40"></a><p><b>From: Laura (ELLEMD628)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.40">#40</a>]<br /> 16 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.39">#39</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> <p>LOL! I like $50 too...eh, $50 / $75 either way that's about a round of golf I'll tell my husband he better pass up this year. <span class="e_wink" title=";)"><span class="e__">;)</span> </span></p> <p>Insert obnoxious laugh HERE!</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_41"></a><p><b>From: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.41">#41</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Laura (ELLEMD628)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.40">#40</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> <p>Laura (and ALL),</p> <p>The "typical" engraving shop is open 5-6 days a week. That is 260-300 days a year.</p> <p>Going back to my accounting days, we are looking at .25-.30 per day... I go back to my "argument" that if this forum can't increase the bottom line by this amount, the forum is NOT worth it to that person.</p> <p>$1.25 per week is ONE cup of Starbucks/Dunkin' Donuts coffee or ONE beer for those of you that prefer that beverage..... It is about 5-7 cigarettes at today's prices in major markets..... This is per WEEK, not per DAY.</p> <p>So......... we can get healthier without spending a penny more than we do now by just giving up one of the above once a week!</p> <p> <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span></p> <hr /><p>Message 1603.42 was deleted</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_43"></a><p><b>From: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.43">#43</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.36">#36</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> David, You wrote....<br /> <br /> <font color="#808080">While I'm not looking to exclude anyone, the curiosity seekers and casual readers, faced with the decision to pay, may eliminate themselves.</font><br /> <br /> Count on it!<br /> <br /> Doug <hr /><a name="a1603_44"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.44">#44</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.43">#43</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> <p>There is still the option for the old EE. That forum will still be viable, and will still be a place to go for those that don't want to pay...yes it has some banner ads, but so will this forum.</p> <p>I suspect there will be a split set of factions. Those that are stubborn enough to shift back to delphi forums EE and continue on for free, and those that want the smaller more active group that you would get with a pay forum. I honestly don't see this forum growing at all without a free trial period if David is looking for 50-75 annual subscription. My experience with people that are internet savy is that they expect most information to be cost free (outside of the cost of their cable bill anyway). The internet is pretty much founded around the free exchange of information....</p> <p>This should a very interesting experiment.</p> <p>I have seen a professional photographers forum that has a two tiered system. you must have a certain number of helpful posts on their entry level free forum before you can join their pay forum at around 60 bucks a year. This keeps the "professionals" in a group to themselves and protects them somewhat from the general competition that is out there otherwise I guess. My understanding is that this forum is around 1200 paying members at this time.</p> <p>Brian G.</p><hr /><a name="a1603_45"></a><p><b>From: Michael</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.45">#45</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.27">#27</a>] 17 Jul 2005</p> I love numbers, especially those that are easy (I'm not just cheap, I'm lazy, too) to toss around! <span class="e_grin" title=":D"><span class="e__">:D</span> </span><br /> <br /> You might be right, but how about providing some substantiating evidence for that bottom line. Please note I'm not asking for rock solid proof that this forum will make us all rich if we toss our own money in the pot, just some evidence your numbers are real. <br /> <br /> <font color="#FF0000"><b>Added after seeing your numbers to Laura</b>:</font><br /> <br /> <i><b>I spend a good hour a week here. 5% or less of the posts I read could have any positve impact on my bottom line (ie, a tip to save me time or a suggested resource for services or products, etc) If my shop rate is $75/hour, that leaves $71.25 per week that I spend here that has no positive financial impact . Money or time spent that does not create profit is a loss; No matter what the cost of a subscription to this forum, my loss for each week would be $71.25. That's over $3,000 for a year.</b></i><br /> <br /> Like you, I'm quite amazed...that people are willing to pay for this forum just because some one said, "Let's make it a pay format". <br /> <br /> I think the forum is great. If it becomes a commercial endeavor, that's great, too, and I'll be one of the first to cheer it on, albeit, from an unseen sideline because I won't pay for it, period.<br /> <br /> Once this becomes a commercial endeavor, <i>the sense of community will go out the window</i>. I think this answers a recent question directed towards me as to why other engraving forums recieve one or two posts a week and why members of other forums come here regularly.<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 17 Jul 2005 by MICHAEL</p> <hr /><a name="a1603_46"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.46">#46</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.44">#44</a>] 18 Jul 2005</p> Brian,<br /> <br /> Thank you for reminding people the Dephi "Engravers" forum, which we use as a backup, is alive and well and fully-functional.<br /> <br /> The times I've mentioned that option myself, had people feeling like I was pointing them out the door. That's not the case. I encourage those not interested in a pay forum to repopulate and revive the Delphi forum.<br /> <br /> Actually, for the time being, you won't see banner ads on that forum. Before we moved here, I paid for an extended period of ad-free reading.<br /> <br /> The concept of a pay forum isn't in the experimental stages at all. My wife belongs to <a href="http://www.photoworkshop.com">www.photoworkshop.com</a> which is a thriving pay site with virtually thousands of members paying $99 per year.<br /> <br /> As for EE, we're in our 6th year of a "Free Trial."<br /> <br /> Wouldn't you say that's ample? <hr /><a name="a1603_47"></a><p><b>From: Ken D. (KDEVORY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.47">#47</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Doug (JDOUG5170)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.29">#29</a>] 18 Jul 2005</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">As for the pay system of this forum being so as to make it a revenue generator for the "owner and moderators"...count me out....unless possibly I become one of ya and can actually use the information.</div><br /> <br /> Interesting comment. I know I've only place one order with you so far...<br /> But I wouldn't have you as a supplier if you weren't on this forum. (I'm not saying I'm going to stop buying. I learned of your business through your posts.) <hr /><a name="a1603_48"></a><p><b>From: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.48">#48</a>]<br /> 17 Jul 2005<br /><b>To: Michael</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.45">#45</a>] 18 Jul 2005</p> <p>Michael, If you are missing out on profitable work just to read the forum, well........ perhaps you MIGHT take another look at your priorities.</p> <p>I wouldn't expect anyone to come to the forum instead of doing orders UNLESS they ran into a problem and needed help right then and there.</p> <p>As for specifics on my numbers, I will let you confirm the costs of what you would be giving up in your market.</p> <p>As for increased income, there are more than enough posts saying "OH! That is how you do it" or "I just saved X steps by trying it your way." Let's not forget the posts "I had a customer ask for...... and I have never done it. Can anybody help?"</p> <p><br /> BTW, how much ARE the "5% or less" worth?</p> <p>I am NOT saying anyone should spend a penny on membership unless they feel they are getting their money's worth... but I also don't believe anyone should try to disuade someone from continuing in a "Pay to play" forum just so THEY won't lose their free ride.</p> <hr /><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="EE" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="1603.49" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="submit1" class="button" value="Keep reading…" /></form><p align="center">Show messages:  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.1">1-8</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.9">9-28</a>  29-48  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.49">49-68</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.69">69-88</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.89">89-108</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=1603.109">109-122</a></p> <h4><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=EE">Back to thread list</a> | <a href="llogout.php?webtag=EE">Login</a></h4> <h6>© 2025 <a href="http://www.beehiveforum.net/" target="_blank">Project Beehive Forum</a></h6> </body>