Thoughts and Decisions - Engraving Etc. Forum

<body> <h1>Full Version: <a href="https://www.engravingetc.org:443/archive/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.27">Thoughts and Decisions</a></h1><a name="a3905_27"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.27">#27</a>]<br /> 25 May 2006<br /><b>To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.23">#23</a>] 28 May 2006</p> Franklin,<br /> <br /> Thinking out loud: If we get the low-cost, "basic cable" membership underway, we'll be able to get more of the "whistles and bells" rolling.<br /> <br /> We've already shown some examples of Premium Features, in the way of our first TeleSeminar, with Anthony Coyne and assorted PicTutorials and Ruben's recent Camtasia Studio CS tutorial.<br /> <br /> I've already been lining up guest speakers, for future TeleSeminars, including Diane Bosworth, on the topic of laser engraving and Mike O'Hara, on the topic of photography.<br /> <br /> I've also been in contact with people with a knowldege of the history of our industry, including the son of a TDMA Hall of Famer, who are agreeing to be interviewed (audio).<br /> <br /> We can add more features, under the heading of the basic membership, but the question then becomes; at what point do we determine there's enough "premium content" to justify an official premium level? <hr /><a name="a3905_28"></a><p><b>From: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.28">#28</a>]<br /> 26 May 2006<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.26">#26</a>] 27 May 2006</p> Oh, Ok, pardon my post. I misunderstood and thought it was going to be a business that would try to make a profit. Now I realize that it will be more a labor of love.<hr /><a name="a3905_29"></a><p><b>From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.29">#29</a>]<br /> 26 May 2006<br /><b>To: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.28">#28</a>] 26 May 2006</p> <p>It may start out as a labor of love, but eventually evolve into a full-time job if it is received well.</p> <p>Some may perceive the subscription fee as a means of profiting. I perceive it as revenue necessary to replace the lost income David will sustain because of more time being focused on the features of the website for our benefit and enjoyment.</p> <hr /><a name="a3905_30"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.30">#30</a>]<br /> 26 May 2006<br /><b>To: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.28">#28</a>] 26 May 2006</p> Bill,<br /> <br /> Your thoughts, with respect to trying to get this venture off the ground, while being underfunded, were exactly the thoughts I shared with my fellow moderators, months ago, behind-the-scenes.<br /> <br /> We're attempting something that's never been done (in this industry).<br /> <br /> Where to start ($) is a fine line.<br /> <br /> I've made no secret of the fact, I'd like to make money from the pay site. I also realize a lot of money will have to be spent, in taking it where I want to go.<br /> <br /> "It takes money, to make money" and that axiom is something I hope our potential subscribers will keep in mind.<br /> <br /> One of our functions, is helping people avoid the wrong turns and back alleys, many of us have traveled.<br /> <br /> Teaching people what to do is important.<br /> <br /> Teaching people what <b>not</b> to do, will be invaluable and I'm sure many will feel, worth the cost of admission.<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 26 May 2006 by DGL</p> <hr /><a name="a3905_31"></a><p><b>From: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.31">#31</a>]<br /> 26 May 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.30">#30</a>] 27 May 2006</p> <p>David,<br /> In my first post I was seriously trying to make a helpful point. <br /> The second post was a bit of sarcasm.<br /> Of course it will be a business, and as with any business the creator of that project deserves to make a profit. I have been here long enough to realize how much you have put into this and how much you are willing to do to make it work. It didn't get to where it is today without a lot of hard work and investment.<br /> I wish you the very best of luck in making this venture into what you dreamed it would be when you started out, as I am sure everyone here does. And as for making money with it I say go for it. For you I would bet that the satisfaction of creating a great place for people to learn is the most important but there ain't nothing wrong with profiting. <br /> Have a good and safe Memorial Day.<br /> Bill</p><hr /><a name="a3905_32"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.32">#32</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.31">#31</a>] 27 May 2006</p> Thank you Bill.<br /> <br /> This industry has been very good to myself and many others.<br /> <br /> Personally, there's nothing more satisfying, than to help people up the ladder that's enabled me to carve out (no pun intended) a decent living, while performing such a fun and creative process, with some of the nicest people in the world, as customers.<br /> <br /> There have been comments on my out-of-pocket expenses.<br /> <br /> I haven't really thought too much about the expenses, other than the largest expense I've endured, which has been considerable time away from my profit-producing work.<br /> <br /> That's taken a tangible toll. <hr /><a name="a3905_33"></a><p><b>From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.33">#33</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: ALL</b></p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">I haven't really thought too much about the expenses, other than the largest expense I've endured, which has been considerable time away from my profit-producing work. <i>David L</i></div><br /> <br /> That is the point I think that some people are missing. For anything to get accomplished toward the expansion into a useful website, it is going to take someone's valuable time. In fact, to do it right, it will take a heck of a lot more work than one person can handle. That is where the money comes in. It won't happen to the degree it needs to until the cash flows.<br /> <br /> $36 annually for the basic forum, with an optional upgrade to the subscription website and its features at a price to be determined. Let's get this show on the road.<br /> <br /> I don't know how the rest of the folks here feel about this structure? Ultimately it is David's decision, but I think we need to air it out and see where everyone stands as a whole. Please keep your comments cordial, regardless of where you stand on the issue.<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 27 May 2006 by DATAKES</p> <hr /><a name="a3905_34"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.34">#34</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.33">#33</a>] 29 May 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">into a useful website</div><br /> <br /> Hi <br /> David,<br /> <br /> What makes you feel that the site isn't useful the way it is right now?<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Everyone keeps talking about this grandiose plan......What is it exactly?<br /> <br /> The real problem is that it is a chicken or egg issue. Without the money...the changes can't be made. Without the changes, there is little logical reason for the money......<br /> <br /> <b>There are only two real solutions to the problem..........</b><br /> <br /> <br /> David must define the vision, to help raise funds and pique interest, or raise the money on his own with investors/personal finances, like any real business would.<br /> <br /> Oops....I guess there is a Third option...................The third solution would be to leave it well enough alone. Minimum costs, a perfectly happy captive audience, and much less time investment than starting a big plan..... <hr /><a name="a3905_35"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.35">#35</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.34">#34</a>] 27 May 2006</p> Brian,<br /> <br /> While you're awaiting a response from David T., I have a question for you, or anyone else who can explain the popularity of some forums, over others.<br /> <br /> Why is that?<br /> <br /> It can't be merely the fact that they're free. <hr /><a name="a3905_36"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.36">#36</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.35">#35</a>] 27 May 2006</p> <p>I agree...It's more far complex than the fact that they are free.</p> <p>I would guess participation has alot to do with it....as does attitude.</p> <p>I find this forum to have excellent participation and the people here are helpful, willing to share, and really deeply nice. I believe that these are the key ingredients.</p> <p>Making it pay won't change those basics, or mean that someone else can't put the same thing together with the same values in 24 hours like sprinter did.</p> <p>I think the general fear that was brought out when you were "starting" the change to pay, might have been that your personal dreams may spoil a really great thing that you already have going....</p> <p>I have no problem with you having dreams and wanting to do something bigger and better, but as I mentioned to David Takes....I'm not sure the majority want more than what they have already. If you want to go pay, you have to offer more than what you have here.....and I doubt that most want anything else. I may be totaly off base, but most of the people that support your wish to change to pay is because they feel like you should be getting something for all your efforts. Not necessarily because a bigger and better EE is necessary or even a good idea. </p> <p>I think your in a tough spot. And from my view I only see a real resolution in the three basic ways that I mentioned to David T. To achieve your dream you need to tell people what they will be getting to justify the flow of cash, or raise money on your own, or through investment. The third option is one that I doubt you will like, as you have vowed to move forward.....but you could leave the blasted thing alone and find other ways to raise revenue.</p> <p>I directed the post at David T because I found the one statement (that I quoted) in his post rather interesting......I'm very interested in what your thoughts are as well regarding this question....</p> <p>What's wrong with what's here already?</p> <p>Thanks,</p> <p>Brian G.</p><hr /><a name="a3905_37"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.37">#37</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.34">#34</a>] 28 May 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">raise the money on his own with investors/personal finances, like any real business would.</div><br /> <br /> And offer the investors what? No return on investment and a constant need for more investment because the site is free?<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Minimum costs, a perfectly happy captive audience, and much less time investment than starting a big plan..... </div><br /> <br /> I guess that $3 per month is above minimum cost for you. To each his own. <hr /><a name="a3905_38"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.38">#38</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.36">#36</a>] 28 May 2006</p> Brian,<br /> <br /> I think the question is, "What's right, at EE already?<br /> <br /> There must be more than meets the eye.<br /> <br /> Free forums...are...well...free forums.<br /> <br /> The A&E forum, by rights, should have been the venue to beat all. After all, it was one of the first on the block, initiated by a major trade publication and wasn't single-faceted, at all.<br /> <br /> My friend, Jim Williams, disillusioned (as were others, including myself) with the A&E forum, launched the Yahoo Trophy and Award Engravers forum, before I launched EE on Delphi.<br /> <br /> Today, the A&E forum is gone (and they graciously point people here) and Jim's forum is barely active.<br /> <br /> I agree, (contrary to my original belief) not everyone wants a bigger and better site. That's why I'm proposing the "basic cable" option, for an amount, even the most <i>frugal</i> prospect, would see as very affordable.<br /> <br /> That option, is the forum, as you see it today, which has been touted as extremely valuable, by many, including yourself.<br /> <br /> My grandiose plan, if any, is to pay people for compelling content, such as Ruben Salcedo's excellent Camtasia Studio presentation, which I think we can all agree, did a much more expedient job, of demonstrating a procedure, than several of the printed-word posts, combined.<br /> <br /> I emailed Ruben and thanked him for the "free sample." I mentioned I'd like to pay him for future presentations. Ruben wasn't opposed to that idea, because of the time and editing involved, in the production of the piece.<br /> <br /> Naturally, if I'm paying for content, the "Whistles and Bells" will come at a cost.<br /> <br /> That content will be available to "basic cable" members, cafeteria-style, while much of the same content will be included (at no additional cost, or very nominally) in a Premium membership.<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Making it pay won't change those basics, or mean that someone else can't put the same thing together with the same values in 24 hours like sprinter did.</div><br /> <br /> That's exactly right; nor does it mean a free forum will immediately blossom as a result.<br /> <br /> I'm not opposed to people feeling I should be compensated for nearly seven-years-worth of unpaid effort and out-of-pocket expenses.<br /> <br /> I'm one of those people; although that's not my primary objective.<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 28 May 2006 by DGL</p> <hr /><a name="a3905_39"></a><p><b>From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.39">#39</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.1">#1</a>] 27 May 2006</p> <p>This is not intended to get everyone up in arms again, but I think I have discovered the root of the problem.</p> <p>This thread is titled: "Decisions and Thoughts"</p> <p>It seems to me that the process should have been "Thoughts and Decisions"</p> <hr /><a name="a3905_40"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.40">#40</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.39">#39</a>] 27 May 2006</p> Pete,<br /> <br /> I've changed the discussion title. We'll see how much of a difference it makes. <span class="e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span> </span><br /> <br /> Thanks, <hr /><a name="a3905_41"></a><p><b>From: bluepaw</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.41">#41</a>]<br /> 27 May 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.40">#40</a>] 28 May 2006</p> <p>I think you will have to make the decision to go pay or not based on your own gut feelings as to whether or not it will be supported.<br /> At best it will be a calculated risk, but that is the case with any venture. <br /> If you wait for a concensus on this forum I believe you will never do anything. <br /> It is my feeling that you have already decided to go ahead with the pay site and are seeking validation from others. I understand that. It is a scary thing to go it alone. <br /> From what I have gleaned by reading the posts you probably have 80%+ support here. But supporting when you have nothing to lose is fairly easy. Investing ones hard earned money and valuable time is not. When it comes down to it only you can decide.<br /> One thing you might consider if you feel the need is to take a poll to see who supports a pay site and who doesn't. That will at least give you an idea of income you can expect.<br /> I, for one, will support you more than verbally. I will make an initial investment because I believe in what you are trying to do and I believe it will be successful. My track record of personal business success has been pretty good for whatever that is worth. <br /> Bill</p><hr /><a name="a3905_42"></a><p><b>From: Debbie (DEBBIEG)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.42">#42</a>]<br /> 28 May 2006<br /><b>To: ALL</b></p> <p>This is my 2ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ worth which I told myself I was not going to post to this subject (wanting to stay out of it) but I think maybe I have a valid point.<br /> David I think your idea for the new site is a great idea. I can see all the possibilities with it. But the problem I think most people have is in the wording of what has transpired and maybe a little of how it is planned out. <br /> I think the first thing people got upset about is taking away something that they liked and knew as is and to now have to pay for it. I think if you would of explained how much out of pocket money you have spent to keep this forum running, I bet people would have donated money to you to take that burden off of you since it is a free forum and we all get something out of it. People would have freely donated to keep it running. But that is not how the original postings transpired and all the commotion happened. But now I think that subject has somewhat been resolved. <br /> The second thing that I think makes some people very upset is the fact that you want to make a profit on this new site. I can completely understand the fact that this new site is going to take money to get off the ground and keep running and that people who supply the site with their expertise knowledge does not come free and will need to be paid for. But if you want to make a profit at it then it is going to be a business for you. People got offended as to why they should pay you so you could make money to have themselves just offer up free advise just like what is currently done. What am thinking and maybe others feel the same way is that when a person wants to start a business to make profit they either use all their personal funds available, go to the bank and get a loan or find investors. The last comment is the one that I think maybe would have made all the difference. Again it all comes down to is wording something to make people want to do something rather than tick them off. If you would have said that you want to start this new business venture where you do not have the moneys to get it off the ground properly and you need investors then you might of got people to want to invest in the new site. At that point you would need to give your investors something for their money (dividends). All others who wanted to join the site would have to pay and then those moneys would then cover cost and help pay for those dividends. </p> <p>David bottom line is the way you have worded it, it makes you look greedy. A person wanting to make a profit at something is called a businessman/woman. You need to come up with the funds to make that business run or find investors. If you do not get enough funds or investors for those funds then the business gets put on hold. But to just come out and tell everyone here that you are pulling the plug on the free site and wanting everyone to now pay was just not worded correctly and people took offense. Also when comments keep being said about making a profit and you taking time away from your money making business, it kind of backfires. For example if I want to start a new business adventure and it takes me away from my current business and that current business is not making the money it could possibly make that is the chance I take. It is my risk that I take for starting something new. To ask others to take that risk with you when you do not even have anything to really show is asking others to compensate you for the risk that you are willing to take. </p> <p> I hope that this message is read how it was intended on being read. I wrote it in a calm manor, not trying to be snotty in any way but trying to add a comment that might shed some light on the subject. </p> <p>Debbie <br /> who is nervous about hitting the send button <span class="e_cringe" title=">.<"><span class="e__">>.<</span> </span>here goes hitting the button with eyes closed.</p><hr /><a name="a3905_43"></a><p><b>From: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.43">#43</a>]<br /> 28 May 2006<br /><b>To: Debbie (DEBBIEG)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.42">#42</a>] 28 May 2006</p> Debbie,<br /> <br /> Your post is clear and to the point.<br /> <br /> What many of the present members don't know or realize is that from the beginning (when many were not here) David was perfectly clear that this would be a "pay to play" forum.<br /> <br /> Unfortunately, there was no way to make the original posts sticky so they came up on a regular basis. I think a notice to this effect should be placed on the opening/home screen so others don't assume that it would always be free.<br /> <br /> This evolution has been planned for over two years. When David said it was time to move forward, I was the first to send him my $79 to support his move. Not bragging! Just a fact.....<br /> <br /> Your suggestion that others would jump in to "invest" or support the forum didn't materialize. Yes, there were a few that showed their support finacially, but for the most part all that happened was members whining/complaining/threatening to leave when it became pay and one member even jumped the gun to start their own forum and advertise it here trying to recruit members before the plan went officially into play.<br /> <br /> Did David do it the "smooth" way? Nope! Could he have done it in a "softer" way? Sure! But the bottom line is that for those that have been around for a couple of years, this should have been no surprise.<br /> <br /> I know there has been screams of pain at a cost of $7/month but I dare say that ONE tip that has added to a members arsonal of skills or allowed them to offer new/different products would more than pay for a lifetime of new income venues or at least save $$ on production costs which is the same as increasing one's profits.<br /> <br /> The special offers from the vendors that are being offered to members only would pay for the forum by themselves..... everything from free shipping to 15% discounts on product. Membership WILL be tracked to ensure that all members and ONLY members will be receiving these discounts from what I understand.<br /> <br /> To me it is all in the perspective.... LESS THAN $2 per week! That is less than one cup of Starbucks coffee, one "quality" beer or whatever you would like to relate it to. Even less than ONE GALLON OF GAS!!!!<br /> <br /> To take it to the extreme, if you drive 2-3 less miles per WEEK you have saved gas and paid for the forum.<br /> <br /> Sorry this is so long but I really believe the forum is a valuable tool and those that leave or can't see the value will not be a great loss as they are primarily the members that are here to take what they can and not be a part of the premium engraving family on the net.<br /> <br /> Just my $.04 (A)<br /> <br /> <hr /><a name="a3905_44"></a><p><b>From: BrianC (INKSQUIRTER)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.44">#44</a>]<br /> 28 May 2006<br /><b>To: Debbie (DEBBIEG)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.42">#42</a>] 28 May 2006</p> Debbie,<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">I think the first thing people got upset about is taking away something that they liked and knew as is and to now have to pay for it. </div><br /> <br /> How many of us here would like to rotate every few years to take over running the free forum. Would it be a big deal for me to take on something like that? It's such a big deal, I wouldn't do it. I just wonder how long people are expected to keep something going for other people just because the other people want it.<br /> <br /> David's idea of a pay site is NOT new...he's been talking about it for a long time. Maybe this is a poor analogy but you know how it is living in a state where GM was king. Today, people are being asked to basically pay back into the system to keep the companies afloat.<br /> <br /> I often wondered why people started forums knowing all the costs were theirs. Seems like a lot of work to me.<br /> <br /> My wife and kids have many times thought I was way off base even though I thought I made a lot of sense. Perhaps that's how this post will play out as well.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> The golf forum I belong to last year offered premium memberships. You could either pay the fee, and get added benefits, or not pay and no added benefits. I have NO problem with that. It sounds like EE might turn into something along the same lines. <hr /><a name="a3905_45"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.45">#45</a>]<br /> 28 May 2006<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.37">#37</a>] 28 May 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">I guess that $3 per month is above minimum cost for you. To each his own.</div><br /> <br /> Your placing words in my mouth Harvey. I am paying no matter what it comes down to at a minimum to see what all the hubub is about...I've said that in the past. David was asking us to express our feelings about ways to make this transition a good one. I am expressing mine.<br /> <br /> What's wrong with EE now? Nothing as far as I can see.....Why must it be all or nothing when the majority of the forum is entirely satisfied with the status quo. My opinion is that change is being forced by a small group of people that want to expand thing....That's just fine, but what about those that arent interested? Tough luck? Why must it be this way?<br /> <br /> Could you fathom the possibilty that utopia has already been achieved?<br /> <br /> I can....<br /> <br /> No one has expressed what will be different yet because of fear that this "idea" may be stolen. Someone has to know what the plans are or it won't go anywhere....<br /> <br /> I'm using simple logic here.......<br /> <br /> If the idea can't be sold as a good idea to investors, it's highly likely that it isn't a great idea for a business in general. Think about it for a minute before you start calling me cheap.... <hr /><a name="a3905_46"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.46">#46</a>]<br /> 28 May 2006<br /><b>To: Debbie (DEBBIEG)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.42">#42</a>] 28 May 2006</p> Debbie,<br /> <br /> On the topic of how my words come across in print, it's an unfortunate side of the printed-word format.<br /> <br /> Confidence, in the printed-word, can come across as arrogance.<br /> <br /> Those who know me personally, can attest to me being a soft-spoken, laid back, introspective person.<br /> <br /> I lead a modest lifestyle and prefer to live within my means. To increase those means, through a subscription site, is a desire, but greed isn't a motivator.<br /> <br /> I don't blame you, for being reticent to post.<br /> <br /> I was reluctant to raise this issue again, since "that previous thread", was such an unpleasant experience, for anyone who followed the exchange.<br /> <br /> I got to the point, where those messages were literally the last read. Very uncomfortable.<br /> <br /> I intentionally laid low, for a while, in order to restore a sense of normalcy to the forum, weigh the opinions and collect my thoughts.<br /> <br /> At the same time, I felt it was necessary to keep the momentum going, for a subscription site.<br /> <br /> The concept of a content-based, subscription site, isn't a new one. It just happens to be untried in the A&E industry.<br /> <br /> There are very successful pay sites, (some charging hundreds of dollars per month), which rely on collective participation, as we do here.<br /> <br /> Some have only a handful of members and are very exclusive, while others, have literally thousands of members, with more joining regularly.<br /> <br /> One example would be <a href="http://www.photoworkshop.com">www.photoworkshop.com</a> a site my wife belongs to, at $99 per year. I should point out that the site's heavily-sponsored, as well. Hasn't slowed down paid memberships.<br /> <br /> The one aspect, pay sites hold in common, regardless of their area of endeavor, is information, crucial to the development of expertise and successful businesses, within those fields.<br /> <br /> With that in mind, it could easily be said that <i>everyone</i> profits, through belonging to those pay sites.<br /> <br /> Are the owners of those sites, profiting more than their members?<br /> <br /> It's possible.<br /> <br /> It's also possible, that by putting the accumulated knowledge to work, the forum members could outweigh the income of the site owner.<br /> <br /> It's all up to the individual and their level of ambition.<br /> <br /> I can't think of much more to add, that hasn't been amply covered, in this thread as well as others.<br /> <br /> I do appreciate you bringing your thoughts to this topic. <hr /><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="EE" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="3905.47" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="submit1" class="button" value="Keep reading…" /></form><p align="center">Show messages:  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.1">1-6</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.7">7-26</a>  27-46  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.47">47-66</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.67">67-86</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=3905.87">87-98</a></p> <h4><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=EE">Back to thread list</a> | <a href="llogout.php?webtag=EE">Login</a></h4> <h6>© 2025 <a href="http://www.beehiveforum.net/" target="_blank">Project Beehive Forum</a></h6> </body>