America's Future - Engraving Etc. Forum

<body> <h1>Full Version: <a href="https://www.engravingetc.org:443/archive/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.19">America's Future</a></h1><a name="a5035_19"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.19">#19</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.18">#18</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <p>Brian,</p> <p>This is truly a historic topic. You, David, my wife, and I are on the same page in agreement.</p> <hr /><a name="a5035_20"></a><p><b>From: Cody (BOBTNAILER)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.20">#20</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.18">#18</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <p>Brian,</p> <p>I tend to disagree with a lot of stuff you say on this forum (opinion-based things). However, I find our minds to be in lock-step here.</p> <p>It seems that many people here are willing to fight (in court) for these terrorists' right to kill us. Their outcry seems to be "If it makes these poor, misunderstood middle-easterners happy to destroy America, then it's their right to do so. Who are we to say that they're wrong?"</p> <p>To those of you who believe that way, I invite you to start learning to speak Iraqi....that attitude will have us all speaking it eventually. Oh wait...no it won't...they'll kill us all for not being MUSLIM. </p> <p>You must keep in mind that they DO NOT think like you do. They aren't all wishy-washy about "right" and "wrong". There's nothing "relative" about what they believe. To them, you are either MUSLIM, or you must die. Period. End of discussion. There's no second place trophy here, folks. Pick a side, and get down off your lilly white fence.</p> <p>I'm done.</p> <p><br /> Cody</p><hr /><a name="a5035_21"></a><p><b>From: Dave (MT_DAVE)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.21">#21</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: ALL</b></p> It seems as though there are a heck of a lot of people out there who are willing to tear up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and to support a regime that tells our President that he doesn't have to obey our laws. Sorry, but our country was founded and based on rules and laws, and if we give up our freedom and to look the other way when the laws on the books are ignored at the highest levels, it is no longer the America that our fathers and grandfathers fought for.<hr /><a name="a5035_22"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.22">#22</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Cody (BOBTNAILER)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.20">#20</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> Hi Cody,<br /> <br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">I tend to disagree with a lot of stuff you say on this forum (opinion-based things). However, I find our minds to be in lock-step here.</div><br /> <br /> I understand...<br /> <br /> I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time, but it is nice hearing when someone does find common ground with your opinions....<br /> <br /> <br /> I was surprised how unified my position was with Harvey on the prisoner situation. <hr /><a name="a5035_23"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.23">#23</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.18">#18</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">I've not seen this concession other than by some suspect opinions expressed in the liberal media.......</div><br /> <br /> Brian,<br /> <br /> John Warner (R), formerly a proponent of "stay the course", who just returned from Iraq, says the war has "gone sideways" and if we can't reach some solid conclusions within three months, we need a serious change of direction and all options are on the table.<br /> <br /> Former Secretary of State, Jim Baker (R) when asked why we didn't take Iraq, in 1991, when we had the chance, predicted (at the time) that if we had, we'd be exactly where we are now. Instead of fighting terrorists, we'd be playing referee in a civil war.<br /> <br /> Regardless of their political parties, Generals, once upbeat about the progress of the war, are now on the verge of depression.<br /> <br /> Those aren't opinions of the liberal media.<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Put Iran in Germany or Japan's place and reconsider your position.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> To do that, would require that we put all combatants in military uniforms, thereby, identifiable as the enemy.<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Get off your liberal high horse and let them finish what needs to be done.</div><br /> <br /> I don't subscribe to partisan politics. That stands in the way of making any substantial progress, on any number of issues. It's crippled our country.<br /> <br /> What "needs to be done" is entirely up in the air. If there were a clear course, most people (regardless of political affiliation) would be behind that course.<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 8 Oct 2006 by DGL</p> <hr /><a name="a5035_24"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.24">#24</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.23">#23</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <p>My personal opinion is that we should let the military people put in office by the elected leadership choose the course of action, instead of playing armchair general. For every negative view of the iraqi war there are positive occurances available.</p> <p>I don't necessarily dissagree with John Warner, and agree that we need an updated aproach to what is going on, it's called "adjusting to conditions", and I'm quite sure that our military is capable of doing what it takes to do that.</p> <p>Your taking a prediction from 1991 as a current statement? James Bakers prediction may still happen, but at this point civil war is possible, but not there yet. hopefully it will not occur.</p> <p>Generals, once upbeat about the progress of the war, are now on the verge of depression? I suspect you are talking about Generals that aren't in the warroom any longer.........All of which have their own ambitions at this point. When you saying that they are "on the verge of depression" are you saying that you have your hand on the pulse of their emotions? I highly doubt it. I wasn't aware of any ex generals that you hung around with closely enough to get into their heads.</p> <p>You missed my point about putting Iran into Germany or japan's place. If you ingnore history, and continue to appease people that threaten us (like Iran) you may as well let Iran use those nukes that they are working toward to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth. I suppose that will somehow be the Bush's fault too......Ignore all the appeasement that occured through democratic years before 9/11, and the lesson's that we learned from it, so we can just be attacked again, and again due to our pacifism.</p> <p>What needs to be done is absolutely not up in the air.....What needs to be done is that we need to win. We need to leave that job to the people that get paid to do it, and support them and the troops that put themselves in harms way protecting our country. By winning we will silence these independant groups as well as the Iran's of the world that want to sneer in our faces and decry that the Holocost never happened.</p> <hr /><a name="a5035_25"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.25">#25</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.24">#24</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Your taking a prediction from 1991 as a current statement?</div><br /> <br /> Baker's prediction has come to pass. Not full-blown, (yet) but a civil war is in progress, nonetheless.<br /> <br /> The comment on depressed Generals somes from journalists who cover the Pentagon. Their optimistic assessments are gone.<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">For every negative view of the iraqi war there are positive occurances available.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> Do tell. <hr /><a name="a5035_26"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.26">#26</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.25">#25</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">journalists who cover the Pentagon</div><br /> <br /> From what publication?<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">a civil war is in progress, nonetheless.</div><br /> <br /> The potential for a civil war has been there from the beginning.....What do you think would have happened if the failed overthrow of Sadaam would have been successful? <br /> <br /> All I have heard about the potential of civil war is that there has been some sectarian violence. I'm not sure what the scale is, but if it was large scale you can be sure the media would be squaking about it as it would make the administration look bad.....(their main goal).<br /> <br /> Regarding Good things that happen in Iraq....My version of what is happening in Iraq is from an Uncle that fought in Vietnam, and then <b>volunteered</b> last year to go fight in Iraq. He returned this last summer, and expressed that they were really helping the Iraqi people learn to fight for themselves, but that it would be a long road.<br /> <br /> <br /> The military just wants to win the battle and come home....Not have decisions be mired down because people want to play partasin politicswith this war. Let em win instead of second guessing everything thats going on. They have their job's because they are good at what they do. You need to have faith in the Generals and people that run the war, not the reporters or the polititians. as mired down as things seem, it's still important that we stay the course and win the war.<br /> <br /> People can report whatever they want to to get attention....That's what selling media is all about.....<br /> <br /> <br /> So I have suggested that we stay the course....let the professionals do their jobs that they get paid for, and win the war. Defining "win" may be difficult over the long haul, but anything that ends in free people with the ability to make their own decisions will be a success in my opinion. The choices they make with their freedom are up to them and will have their own concequences, just like Lebanon......<br /> <br /> <br /> You have offered nothing but complaints and negativity about what's happening....What are your suggestions for solutions to the Iraq/Afganistan/Middle East problems of our day? <hr /><a name="a5035_27"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.27">#27</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.25">#25</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> Don't forget Iran <span class="e_wink" title=";)"><span class="e__">;)</span> </span> <hr /><a name="a5035_28"></a><p><b>From: UncleSteve</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.28">#28</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.22">#22</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> Heck! Even I agree with you... perhaps a little further than you would go, but definitly in agreement! <span class="e_shades" title="B-)"><span class="e__">B-)</span> </span> <hr /><a name="a5035_29"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.29">#29</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Dave (MT_DAVE)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.21">#21</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">...who are willing to tear up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights...</div><br /> <br /> And what does that have to do with non-uniformed combatants being held prisoner. The Constitution does not cover that, but the international rules of war do. <br /> <br /> New situation that this is, those rules are still holding for us, but not for the other side. That should be considered high moral ground.<br /> <br /> Letting a non-uniformed killer of our troops free, (aside from their holy war claim), is just plain stupid. You think he will not go out and start killing again? You must truly understand the enemy to make good decisions. He is totally convinced that to be true to God he must kill as many of us as possible. You will not change his mind, it is his religious devotion. <hr /><a name="a5035_30"></a><p><b>From: LG (WAIIB)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.30">#30</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.27">#27</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> Some food for thought. Go to <a href="http://www.iraqblc.com">www.iraqblc.com</a> and read about all the good and positive that is happening in Iraq. We need to give freedom a chance, not cut and run. Freedoms foes are fighting to the death to stop this from happening and if they win, the good old USA is next. That is the goal of Iran, N. Korea and others. Americans need to wake up and smell the roses.<hr /><a name="a5035_31"></a><p><b>From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.31">#31</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: ALL</b></p> Its groups like Amnesty international that are castrating us as a world power. At Gitmo, these terrorists are given new karans vaccuumed sealed and delivered in sterile bags to promote that they hadn't been touched by infidels, they get special ordered meals, and these terrorists(not freedom fighters, or sanctioned military covered by the geneva convention) have more rights and get it better than our prisons here. The fact that they are allowed to transfer letters to outside sources without them being reviewed for content is outrageous. <hr /> I have friends and family in politics and military and I get information that alot of Americans don't and it sickens me as to how low we have gotten and NO it did not start when Bush came into office. If we keep going in the direction that we are, we will be a socialist country within a couple of decades. <hr /><a name="a5035_32"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.32">#32</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.26">#26</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> Brian,<br /> <br /> The journalists have been Washington correspondents who cover the Pentagon.<br /> <br /> I can't remember their names and have no way of knowing if they have "D" or "R" associated with their names.<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">You have offered nothing but complaints and negativity about what's happening....</div><br /> <br /> I've simply been commenting on the reality of the situation.<br /> <br /> A bi-partisan commission is being assigned the task of offering their assessment and suggestions for a solution.<br /> <br /> Like you, I'll wait to see what the "professionals" suggest.<br /> <br /> Don't expect any suggestions before Nov. 7.<br /> <br /> I haven't forgotten about Iran, but with our military stretched to its limits and our budget deficit at historic levels, with no end in sight, we're playing into the terrorists hands.<br /> <br /> They'll bankrupt us. <hr /><a name="a5035_33"></a><p><b>From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.33">#33</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.26">#26</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <p>Brian,<br /> 1. As a Jewish child I grew up surrounded by Holocaust survivors and<br /> witnessed their pain<br /> 2. As a teen and in my early 20s I marched in many a Vietnam war protest and got thrown in jail for being an American, my anger was always directed at our government never at the troops<br /> 3. As the daughter-in-law of a member of the New York Civilian Draft Review Board (a WWII vet, a JVFW member, a union member and a patriot) during the Vietnam era who resigned because if you were poor and uneducated you were never excused<br /> 4. As the mother of a Marine who served for 12 years<br /> 5. As a liberal </p> <p>it is my belief that we are in a no win situation. We say we want to install a democratic government but I believe democracies guarantee freedom of religion and expression. If we want a democratic government there would it not have that same guarantee? These zealots want to kill us and our way of life. I firmly believe that. I also firmly believe that what we are doing now is not the way to change things. I don't know how to change things but I do know that to stop talking and to stop looking for solutions is not the way to go. I also don't believe that having our soldiers fight a war that I believe we can not win is not the way to go either.</p> <p>Dee</p> <p>BTW it is also my belief that the ultra conservatives in this country are a dangerous group who want to destroy the freedoms I love and enjoy. They, like zealots everywhere, want it their way or no way.</p> <hr /><a name="a5035_34"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.34">#34</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Dee (DEENA-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.33">#33</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> I bet that you can guess that my wife and I sort of differ politically. <hr /><a name="a5035_35"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.35">#35</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Dee (DEENA-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.33">#33</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <p>All I can say is that we see things from different perspectives. I respect your's, but dissagree. </p> <p>I believe that leaving because we have talked ourselves into thinking that we can't win is the wrong way to proceed. </p> <p>I understand your concern with the right being considered "zealouts" as many on the right feel the same way about the far left. I like to consider myself capable of logical thinking, not just emotional thinking, thus eliminating me from what would be considered a zealout......</p> <hr /><a name="a5035_36"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.36">#36</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.34">#34</a>] 9 Oct 2006</p> Better you than me <span class="e_wink" title=";)"><span class="e__">;)</span> </span> <hr /><a name="a5035_37"></a><p><b>From: Jim (RETAIL74)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.37">#37</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.36">#36</a>] 8 Oct 2006</p> <p>I can't even remember why we are there anymore.</p> <p>Is it because Sadam is a threat with his weapons of mass destruction?</p> <p>Is it because we need to stop the insurgents? The terrorists that did not exist under Sadaam?</p> <p>Is it because we need to try to prevent an all out civil war?</p> <p>Sure it would be great to stay the course. Just pick a course. It appears that our enemy keeps changing.</p> <p>So if GWB could take it all back, do you think that we would be where we are right now?</p><hr /><a name="a5035_38"></a><p><b>From: Stunt Engraver (DGL)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.38">#38</a>]<br /> 8 Oct 2006<br /><b>To: Jim (RETAIL74)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.37">#37</a>] 9 Oct 2006</p> Jim,<br /> <br /> To further muddy the waters, add the fact that N. Korea has conducted an underground nuclear test to the mix. <hr /><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="EE" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="5035.39" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="submit1" class="button" value="Keep reading…" /></form><p align="center">Show messages:  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.1">1-18</a>  19-38  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.39">39-58</a>  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5035.59">59-66</a></p> <h4><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=EE">Back to thread list</a> | <a href="llogout.php?webtag=EE">Login</a></h4> <h6>© 2024 <a href="http://www.beehiveforum.net/" target="_blank">Project Beehive Forum</a></h6> </body>